tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post3583365994327843031..comments2024-03-28T17:13:53.779-04:00Comments on Progressive Eruptions: FESTIVUS* FOR THE REST OF USShaw Kenawehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08637273000409613497noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-975403877360113842008-12-19T16:53:00.000-05:002008-12-19T16:53:00.000-05:00Actually, almost all the Christmas traditions have...Actually, almost all the Christmas traditions have been stolen from Pagan and mainly Pagan solstice traditions:<BR/><BR/>Christmas Ham (Germanic / Scandanavian)<BR/>Feasting (Babylonian, Scandanavian)<BR/>Caroling (Roman, Persian)<BR/>Decorating trees with Holly and other things (Scandanavia)<BR/>Putting lights / candles on trees (Scandanavia)<BR/>burning of Yule logs (Sandavania)<BR/>giving gifts<BR/>the closing of public offices and institutions (Roman)<BR/>Mistletoe (Norse, Druid)<BR/>Bearded man wearing hat and flying animals (Norse)<BR/><BR/><BR/>The Babylonians practiced a sort of a 12 day new year "Christmas" type holiday 4000 years ago to honor the God Marduk. <BR/><BR/>In fact, about the only thing about Christmas which is Christian is the manger scene and a few songs.<BR/><BR/>Atheists are not trying to steal Christmas, the Christians are the ones who stole Christmas from the Pagans.<BR/><BR/>Eventually, like All Hallows Eve (Now Halloween), Childermass and Candlemass (Now Groundhogs Day), Christmas will will morph into something else all together. It's inevitable that it will eventually become less religious in signifigance, I mean, do people even go to Church on Christmas anymore? If you want to celebrate Christmas, buy your kids an X-Box, If you want to be a Christian and worship Jesus, go to Church on Sunday. Bottom line is that Christmas is just as much secular as it is religious, and just as always, the Christian right is oblivious to this fact and want to force their ways on to everyone else and will call any free thinker who disagrees with them a heretic, witch, christ-hater, etc. and try to burn them at the stake.Toad734https://www.blogger.com/profile/01450263690181812924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-29768090051290290852008-12-08T09:52:00.000-05:002008-12-08T09:52:00.000-05:00The War on Christmas idea has been gaining tractio...The War on Christmas idea has been gaining traction for years (although O'Reilly seems to have coined it). But actions to purge anything offensive from the Christmas season have been going on longer than that. Ant it's usually anti-religious fanatic (as opposed to atheists) and their lawyers leading the charge there.<BR/><BR/>Hell, they made a South Park episode about it. Of course, it was Kyle's mom that started it there. But then again, she started a war with Canada, too, so maybe she's just a troublemaker.<BR/><BR/>Nonetheless, it's people trying to take things out of the season that started this. Which brings us back to the sign that started the post.Patrick Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16377933168305160179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-18231362508591414542008-12-07T20:46:00.000-05:002008-12-07T20:46:00.000-05:00http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/20...http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008479979_webcapitolrally07m.html<BR/><BR/>This has gotten the attention of one of our more colorful local characters:<BR/><BR/>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002263363_hutcherson05m.html<BR/><BR/>Amen!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-74881946245246671052008-12-07T16:48:00.000-05:002008-12-07T16:48:00.000-05:00Patrick, I agree. Christmas HAS been politicized....Patrick, I agree. Christmas HAS been politicized. But who do you suppose started this absurd idea that there's a "War on Christmas?"<BR/><BR/>Hmmmmm?<BR/><BR/>HINT: It starts with F and ends with X News.<BR/><BR/>No one in their right mind believes there's a war on Christmas. This was a manufactured story to get people riled up, angry, and fighting with each other.<BR/><BR/>There is no war with the biggest commerical, money making holiday in the US. <BR/><BR/>JUst now I heard on the teevee that a gift certificate from Pizza Hut would make a great gift this holiday season! And just the other day I saw another advert that said a nose hair clipper would be a great stocking stuffer.<BR/><BR/>See what I mean?Shaw Kenawehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08637273000409613497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-62524907367173516442008-12-07T15:27:00.000-05:002008-12-07T15:27:00.000-05:00Arthur, Shaw: I think you know what I mean.But si...Arthur, Shaw: I think you know what I mean.<BR/><BR/>But since you want precision:<BR/><BR/>That we've politicized Christmas to such an insane degree is the most tragic part <B>of this situation</B>.<BR/><BR/>Pick my nit, will you....Patrick Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16377933168305160179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-58927483899713278782008-12-06T22:33:00.000-05:002008-12-06T22:33:00.000-05:00@arthurstone: "Come on people..."Yes, Shaw. What A...@arthurstone: "Come on people..."<BR/><BR/>Yes, Shaw. What Arthur said.<BR/><BR/>And I do agree with what you said about the difference between atheist and nontheist. Agnostic is also related, and has its own difference.dmarkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07269773990064736457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-13926929385217586782008-12-06T20:00:00.000-05:002008-12-06T20:00:00.000-05:00Griper:An Atheist is someone who states there is n...Griper:<BR/><BR/>An Atheist is someone who states there is no god.<BR/><BR/>A nontheist is someone who says he/she has no belief in a god.<BR/><BR/>There is a difference. I'm sorry you can't understand that.Shaw Kenawehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08637273000409613497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-52518653513605874372008-12-06T19:37:00.000-05:002008-12-06T19:37:00.000-05:00proportionality? the use of the word tragedy has t...proportionality? the use of the word tragedy has the same proportion of meaning as your use of the word forced.<BR/><BR/>and shaw, the word atheist means a non-theist. the fact you prefer the use of one over the other doesn't change the fact that they are synonymous.<BR/><BR/>the fact that you prefer to leave intent out of the discussion does not change anything. the only person you are misleading is yourself.<BR/><BR/>that is my last words on this issue.The Griperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937560474548021334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-76959265977243908632008-12-06T18:44:00.000-05:002008-12-06T18:44:00.000-05:00What Arthur said.Let's get some proportionality he...What Arthur said.<BR/><BR/>Let's get some proportionality here.Shaw Kenawehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08637273000409613497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-48094718141585771792008-12-06T18:11:00.000-05:002008-12-06T18:11:00.000-05:00Come on people.What took place in Mumbai is a trag...Come on people.<BR/><BR/>What took place in Mumbai is a tragedy.<BR/><BR/>What happened in Olympia is a feather-weight farce. No one died. No one was injured. No one was even inconvenienced. <BR/><BR/>Sheesh.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-34796207861095543542008-12-06T16:16:00.000-05:002008-12-06T16:16:00.000-05:00The sad thing in all this is that we've taken a be...The sad thing in all this is that we've taken a beautiful season full of beautiful holidays and started having pissing matches on the mistletoe. <BR/><BR/>And that's the greatest tragedy of all.Patrick Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16377933168305160179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-57673196949400556842008-12-06T14:20:00.000-05:002008-12-06T14:20:00.000-05:00It keeps getting better:http://seattletimes.nwsour...It keeps getting better:<BR/><BR/>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008475714_atheist06m.html<BR/><BR/>Happy Holler Days!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-62931599762607430012008-12-06T14:16:00.000-05:002008-12-06T14:16:00.000-05:00Arthur: Yes, indeed!Arthur: Yes, indeed!dmarkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07269773990064736457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-59643847726554173082008-12-06T13:57:00.000-05:002008-12-06T13:57:00.000-05:00dmarks typed:'It is one group of believers insulti...dmarks typed:<BR/><BR/>'It is one group of believers insulting another group of believers. That is all it is.'<BR/><BR/><BR/>Politics and the exercise of free speech. Sometimes messy but always interesting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-1027646627196351212008-12-06T12:51:00.000-05:002008-12-06T12:51:00.000-05:00"But I also wonder if the majority religion would ..."But I also wonder if the majority religion would be as tolerant in seeing signs that refute religion."<BR/><BR/>Or signs like the one in the post, that express one religion and refute others...<BR/><BR/>"You and the Griper have determined that the sign is disrespectful and an attempt to "bash" religion."<BR/><BR/>It does not bash religion per-se. Just other faiths. That last line crosses a line that makes them look peevish and immature. Just like if the Christian Christmas message included messages about how those who have other beliefs have "enslaved minds".<BR/><BR/>How is that sigh's last sentence anything other than one religion bashing others?<BR/><BR/>"If that ain't "bashing" nonbelievers, what the hell is?"<BR/><BR/>It is bsshing, of course. I always said it was. But typically, holiday displays from Christians are respectful enough of people to not include such bashing of other faiths. Same with Jewish displays. <BR/><BR/>"Christians are used to being in the majority ..."<BR/><BR/>Majority, minority has nothing to do with it. The question is, who is mature enough to have a holiday display that doesn't bash other beliefs?<BR/><BR/>"they consider it "bashing" their religion."<BR/><BR/>No reasonable person can interpret statements accusing people of having enslaved minds/etc as anything BUT bashing.<BR/><BR/>It is one group of believers insulting another group of believers. That is all it is.dmarkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07269773990064736457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-88325444979168625752008-12-06T11:17:00.000-05:002008-12-06T11:17:00.000-05:00dmarks,You missed my point. I'm NOT against Chris...dmarks,<BR/><BR/>You missed my point. I'm NOT against Christmas, as I wrote in my comments, I participate in it.<BR/><BR/>What is annoying is the commercialization of it--starting the music and seeing signs of it in November, and in some instances, October!<BR/><BR/>Also, the majority religious group in this country is Christian, so, as I said, I expect to see signs of Christmas everywhere. But I also wonder if the majority religion would be as tolerant in seeing signs that refute religion.<BR/><BR/>Those signs are permitted under the 1st Amendment--but just look at the reaction to the sign in Seattle.<BR/><BR/>You and the Griper have determined that the sign is disrespectful and an attempt to "bash" religion.<BR/><BR/>But in fact, the sign reflects what Atheists believe. <BR/><BR/>Non-Born-Again-Christians have always had to listen to or read Born-Agains state that since they do not accept Jesus as their personal savior, they will suffer in the lake of fire, and be condemned to unspeakable torment in the afterlife.<BR/><BR/>If that ain't "bashing" nonbelievers, what the hell is?<BR/><BR/>It's a matter of this:<BR/><BR/>Christians are used to being in the majority and therefore used to hearing and seeing their belief system tolerated in the public arena. When some other system that differs or refutes what they believe and is given equal time, they consider it "bashing" their religion.Shaw Kenawehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08637273000409613497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-44453165210974825272008-12-06T09:23:00.000-05:002008-12-06T09:23:00.000-05:00@shaw: "if you were to enter a store or the US Pos...@shaw: "if you were to enter a store or the US Post Office and hear Atheistic songs and see Atheistic symbols wherever you went whether you wished to or not, what would you call that?"<BR/><BR/>I call it freedom of expression. So some people say things you don't say yourself. Get over it. I go into the post office and see Jewish and Muslim symbols. Am I offended? Not in the least.<BR/><BR/>@shaw: " I'm overwhelmed with the sights and sounds of Christmas--I cannot escape them--THEY ARE FORCED ON ME, whether I want them or not. That's using force. I don't have a choice."<BR/><BR/>Expression of 1st Amendment rights is not "using force". Learn some tolerance. Get used to the idea that not everything thinks the way you do and says the things you want them to say.<BR/><BR/>@shaw: "One little sign shouldn't upset you guys."<BR/><BR/>It doesn't really upset me, or put in in a state of ire or start to get me to rant about being "forced" to see it. Just as one little sign should not upset anyone, all those Christmas displays should not upset anyone either. Be tolerant.<BR/><BR/>Griper: You have a good point. The Atheists sign is more a reaction and attempt to bash those who do not share their faith, than it is just an attempt at expression. The last sentence on the sign (left off the photo) makes them seem peevish and immature.dmarkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07269773990064736457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-59063350408755760902008-12-05T21:39:00.000-05:002008-12-05T21:39:00.000-05:00The Griper said:"there is a big difference. the si...The Griper said:<BR/><BR/><I>"there is a big difference. the sign, by your own admission was placed there for no other reason than the fact the nativity scene was placed there. if the nativity scene had not been placed there the sign would not have been placed there either."</I><BR/><BR/>I did not say the Atheists' sign was placed on public property <B>because</B> "the nativity scene was placed there." The newspaper reported:<BR/><BR/>"The Capitol has had a holiday tree, provided by the Association of Washington Business, for 19 years. In 2006, it was joined by a menorah sponsored by a Seattle Jewish group.<BR/><BR/>That prompted a lawmaker from Spokane to stage a protest at the Capitol, demanding the holiday tree be called a "Christmas tree." It also led a local real estate agent to sue the state to allow the nativity display depicting the birth of Jesus.<BR/><BR/>Gregoire, a Democrat, and Republican Attorney General Rob McKenna put out a joint statement Wednesday noting that the federal case led the state to create an inclusive policy"<BR/><BR/>That's what the report was.<BR/><BR/>The Atheists' sign was placed on on public property for reasons of inclusiveness. Two other religions were using public property to advance their religious ideas, why shouldn't the Atheists have the same privilege? <BR/><BR/>As for your complaint over my understanding of the word force, I don't want to get into a semantic argument.<BR/><BR/>When I said nonbelievers are forced to see and hear Christmas symbols, I mean that I don't have a choice. When I go into stores and even the US Post Office, I'm overwhelmed with the sights and sounds of Christmas--I cannot escape them--THEY ARE FORCED ON ME, whether I want them or not. That's using force. I don't have a choice.<BR/><BR/>You and others will not see this as being forced--however, if you were to enter a store or the US Post Office and hear Atheistic songs and see Atheistic symbols wherever you went whether you wished to or not, what would you call that?<BR/><BR/>I understand that the majority religion in this country is Christian and that Christmas is a big holiday in the Christian religion--but the United States is not a religious state--we are a secular state. Because the Christians are a majority, we who are not Christians, have to just accept this system.<BR/><BR/>And we do.<BR/><BR/>One little sign shouldn't upset you guys.<BR/><BR/>No matter what you believe is its motive.Shaw Kenawehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08637273000409613497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-46960470612820865242008-12-05T21:02:00.000-05:002008-12-05T21:02:00.000-05:00shaw,there is a big difference. the sign, by your ...shaw,<BR/>there is a big difference. the sign, by your own admission was placed there for no other reason than the fact the nativity scene was placed there. if the nativity scene had not been placed there the sign would not have been placed there either. <BR/><BR/>you cannot say that about the nativity scene. the intent and purpose of the two displays are the difference.<BR/><BR/>as for your definition of force. that definition describes the word in terms of a noun not as a verb as you used the word.<BR/><BR/>even the minority can exert influence on the majority and they often do. <BR/><BR/>and the word influence as used here is in scientific terms of understanding not in in common terms of understanding as you used it.<BR/><BR/>in other words you are misleading people by your own terminology.The Griperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937560474548021334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-30506369117422917462008-12-05T15:54:00.000-05:002008-12-05T15:54:00.000-05:00Thanks Arthur.I suggest those who've participated ...Thanks Arthur.<BR/><BR/>I suggest those who've participated in this discussion go read the comments over a the Seattle p.i.:<BR/><BR/>http://tinyurl.com/58lbmkShaw Kenawehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08637273000409613497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-23390306557010735032008-12-05T15:25:00.000-05:002008-12-05T15:25:00.000-05:00But wait!The plot thickens!http://seattlepi.nwsour...But wait!<BR/><BR/>The plot thickens!<BR/><BR/>http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/390844_sign06.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-16253762600903861442008-12-05T14:19:00.000-05:002008-12-05T14:19:00.000-05:00The guys who wrote the sign disrespect faiths....e...The guys who wrote the sign disrespect faiths....except for their own. That makes the sign different, to me: one religion attacking another. No different from a Muslim sign ending with "Die Infidel" or a Christian sign with "Heathens will Go to Hell"<BR/><BR/>"but nonbelievers have heard time and time and time again that people who do not believe in Jesus will suffer eternal torment when they die."<BR/><BR/>But that is usually not part of a holiday display, is it? Christians and Jews tend to be more civically responsible about holiday displays. Unless they are Fred Phelps types, and these Atheists have more in common with them than they do with those who just put up nativity displays.<BR/><BR/>" I don't practice Atheism."<BR/><BR/>Oh. So you are not an Atheist anymore? I must have misread about that you were.<BR/><BR/>From the sign: "Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."<BR/><BR/>This is as true of Atheism as it is of other faiths.<BR/><BR/>Those guys with the sign were not content to just assert their faith, they had to add a line to bash other faiths. Is it in appropriate and should not be allowed? I don't agree with that. Let the closed-minded bigots have their sign.dmarkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07269773990064736457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-89408707604852055452008-12-05T13:30:00.000-05:002008-12-05T13:30:00.000-05:00LOL! dmarks,I don't belong to a "sect" of Atheists...LOL! dmarks,<BR/><BR/>I don't belong to a "sect" of Atheists.<BR/><BR/>I am a-religious. I do not go to a place of "nonworship," I don't follow any nondogma, I don't pray to anything. I don't think about religion except as it impacts my life by others or as a matter of learning about what other cultures believe and why. Period.<BR/><BR/>I don't try to convert others to my philosophy. I don't practice Atheism.<BR/><BR/>As I've stated, I have very dear relatives and friends who are devout religionists, and we get on just fine. <BR/><BR/>And yes, Patrick pointed out that a line on that sign was left off of the photo I took off the 'net.<BR/><BR/>Here's what is left off:<BR/><BR/><I>"Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."</I><BR/><BR/>That may be offensive to religionists, but nonbelievers have heard time and time and time again that people who do not believe in Jesus will suffer eternal torment when they die.<BR/><BR/>That's pretty awful to tell someone, but since Christianity is the dominant religion here in this country, and that tenet is accepted, you wouldn't necessarily think it's offensive.<BR/><BR/>Try reading it from a nonbeliever's point of view.<BR/><BR/>And I'll try to understand how it would feel for a believer to read that his/her religion hardens the heart and enslaves the mind.<BR/><BR/>Arthurstone,<BR/><BR/>Patrick has said that he doesn't necessarily disagree with the sentiments on the sign, but he thinks it is inappropriate to have it displayed at this time of year when the Christian message is one of hope and positivity.Shaw Kenawehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08637273000409613497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-4927990118097864622008-12-05T13:16:00.000-05:002008-12-05T13:16:00.000-05:00Patrick M typed:'But essentially, their goal is to...Patrick M typed:<BR/><BR/>'But essentially, their goal is to challenge the Christian displays. And that's why its a matter of appropriateness, not legal right.'<BR/><BR/>Oh woe is us.<BR/><BR/>The 'war' on Christians/Christmas goes unchecked.<BR/><BR/>Is your God so puny and your faith so feeble as to be threatened by this puny little sign?<BR/><BR/>Phil Gramm is on to something.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1883838569462983439.post-73894617870271024442008-12-05T12:58:00.000-05:002008-12-05T12:58:00.000-05:00"No one can prove or disprove the existence of God..."No one can prove or disprove the existence of God"<BR/><BR/>Regardless, some, like these particular atheists with the sign (whether or not that is your sect of Atheism), along with theists, do make faith assertions about God. <BR/><BR/>These are all religious assertions and should be treated equally.<BR/>----------<BR/>I read somewhere that this particular sign has a line attacking other faiths. I'm not sure on this, though. Was part of the sign in your photo cut off?dmarkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07269773990064736457noreply@blogger.com