Paul Revere by Cyrus Dallin, North End, Boston

Bundy

Bundy
He doesn't believe in obeying the law.

Saturday, August 7, 2010

SAM SEDER ON THE CONTROVERSY OVER THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY CENTER AT GROUND ZERO: "THAT'S BULLSHIT!"




Reminder to critics who think a mosque is offensive to the legacy of 9/11: There’s already one at the Pentagon.

26 comments:

tnlib said...

Great video. I'm working on something that this goes along with beautifully. May I use - with full credit back to you of course. I'm really glad you put this up and just at the right time of course! I had head that about the ADL and am super pissed about it.

Howard S. said...

It's the Right's right to always hate some minority.

It was the Commies years ago, then Liberals, and then the gays for many years--Rove capitalized on that hatred, then came 9/11 and the Right got a whole new group of people to hate: Muslims--read our first bi-racial president with Hussein for a middle name.

Gay marriage and gay acceptance have arrived, and the Right can't very well keep up their demonization of that minority--it would make them look so unXtian, so the Right needs another group to demonize and hate: The Muslims.

The community center is not at ground zero, it is near ground zero where a mosque already exists.

The Right should at least be consistent in their hatred--but their sort of hatred is never rational.

FAUX has done a great job in propagandizing those of little brain power--their followers.

Shaw Kenawe said...

tnlib,

Please use vid as you wish. I'll be over to see your blog.

tnlib said...

Probably won't be up till tomorrow but thanks.

boomer bob said...

Falwell and Robertson - the conservative ticket in 2012???

The bigoted right just never stops do they! If they can't hate blacks, they'll hate the gays. If they can't hate the gays, they'll hate the Muslims. If they can’t hate the Muslims, hell they’ll hate each other just so they can hate something.

Shaw Kenawe said...

Boomer,

If we are to use the nutty logic of some rightwingers, we should not allow any Baptists to participate in any public or government activities and disallow the building of Baptist churches because the Westboro Baptists are nasty and evil.

Because a tiny, miniscule minority out of the over 1 BILLION Muslims on the planet committed an horrendous crime on our soil, some on the right believe they no longer deserve the freedom of religion that is extended to other religions.

These people really don't know much about the US Constitution--or rather they use it only when it supports what they believe in--anything else, and they'll trash it or propose changing it.

I remember certain rightwingers criticizing Pres. Obama for saying there was a flaw in the Constitution [there was--allowing slavery], but these same people now want to change it so that anchor babies are no longer considered American citizens.

TOM said...

Religious intolerance, is just another bigoted side of Republicans.
Muslims died on 9/11 in the buildings.
These American Muslims are not friendly to Bin Laden, or the terrorists that have hijacked their religion.
More fear mongering from the republicans.

Shaw Kenawe said...

"Islam is peace." --President George W. Bush, September 17,2001

dmarks said...

My only problem with the mosque issues is that I have read on Wikipedia that it is to be called "Cordoba House", named after a major part of the brutal Middle-Ages Islamic invasion and the ensuing horrific and oppressive of Spain. A truly dark period in Islam.

The name recalled Islam at its worst and most aggressive. According to Wikipedia, "With the name proving to be inflammatory, its investors subsequently renamed the project "Park51".

Good for them.

Arthurstone said...

Falwell and Robertson - the conservative ticket in 2012???


Sadly (or not as the case may be) the good Reverend Falwell ascended to the right hand of God a few years back.

But don't worry. There are other worthy candidates.

And then there is 'Cordoba' to consider.

Actually the Moorish rule of much of the Iberian peninsula was not particularly 'horrific' as those things go. Certainly they were an improvement over the Visigoths.

This too is from Wikipedia:

It was captured in 711[3] by a Muslim army: in 716 it became a provincial capital, depending from the Caliphate of Damascus; in Arabic it was known as قرطبة (Qurṭuba). In May 766, it was elected as capital of the independent Muslim emirate of al-Andalus, later a Caliphate itself. During the caliphate apogee (1000 AD), Córdoba had a population of roughly 400,000 inhabitants,[4] though estimates range between 250,000 and 500,000. In the 10th-11th centuries Córdoba was one of the most advanced cities in the world, as well as a great cultural, political, financial and economic centre. The Great Mosque of Córdoba dates back to this time; under caliph Al-Hakam II Córdoba received what was then the largest library in the world, housing from 400,000 to 1,000,000 volumes.

This is also interesting:

The Jews in Islamic Spain: Al Andalus

by S. Alfassa Marks

One of the characteristic features of the early history of Spain is the successive waves of different people who spread across the Iberian Peninsula. Phoenicians, Greeks, Vandals, Visigoths, Muslims, Jews, and Christians all occupied Spain at one point or another. History records communities of Jews living on the Iberian Peninsula from as early as the destruction of the first temple in Jerusalem (Diaz-Mas 1). But it was during the realm of the Moors in Al-Andalus (land of the vandals) which the Jews thrived the greatest. Though this was a time of artistic, educational, and cultural enlightenment, it was not completely serene or without persecution for the Jewish people.

As historians look back before the first millennium at the Jewish populations of Iberia, we see Jews living in convergence with both Muslims and Christians. However, Muslims were undoubtedly the principal subjects of the kingdom, not Jews, nor Christians. The Muslims had greater rights and responsibilities than non-Muslims, thus Moorish toleration was not exactly Moorish equality. History demonstrates a long history of persecutions against the Jewish people. And the Jews living in Muslim Spain were not excluded from such inequity.

(snip)

Compared to the rest of Europe Muslims, Jews and Christians got along quite well in Spain during the Moorish era. That carried over into the Ottoman Empire as well.

Go figure.

Suggested Reading:

Arthurstone said...

Oops!

Suggested reading:

'Lords of the Horizons: A History of the Ottoman Empire'

By Jason Goodwin

Shaw Kenawe said...

dmarks,

You need to read up on the history of the Cordoba House. It isn't as simple as what you described. I didn't in know it myself, but since reading about it, I understand it does NOT represent what is being said about it.

I can't find the link just now, but to say that Cordoba House represents the conquest of Xtianity by the Muslims is not true.

Saying that building the mosque near Ground Zero would be an insult and a monument to the ideology that caused 9/11, as Pam Geller has said, is as stupid as saying that building a Christian Church would be an insult and a monument to the ideology that encouraged the Holocaust. [Christian hatred and demonization of the Jews through the centuries made Hitler's final solution easier to accomplish--that cannot be denied.]

People have to be reminded of what most religions have been responsible for in the past--hatred and death to those who do not share the same beliefs.

Christians need to be reminded of the demonization of the Jews in Hitler's Germany before they condemn all of Islam, and understand that 6 million Jews were slaughtered because of Christian hatred of Jews. It was the Catholic Church that put the Jews in the ghetto and made them wear yellow hats and forced them to be money lenders because that was considered dirty work by the Church.

I am no supporter of organized religion of any stripe, but there seems to be a deliberate blindness to what was done by the Christians to the Jews in this hysteria over the mosque in NYC.

dmarks said...

Arthur: There's been a lot of research done about the colonial rule of the Islamic empire when it extended into SW Europe. There were some brief periods of relatively enlightened times, yes, But the rest of it was brutal despotism. The despotism included destruction of books and crushing of scholarly freedom. And all the white, the occupying Moors systematically destroyed and/or desecrated churches and synagogues. I heard about this in great detail from a guest on NPR (yes NPR, not EIB!) earlier in the year.

And even in the best of times there, Christians and Jews got along as well as Blacks did under Jim Crow. The law was designed to give them some protections, but overall to punish them for not sharing the occupiers' faith. Jews and Christians had to convert to Islam to get the same rights as Muslims.

And you admit that the rule was "unequal" and tilted in favor of the occupiers. Not truly multicultural, and thus a rather bad name for the mosque.

Shaw: I did not say that the mosque represents brutal conquest and occupation. I do not believe that it does. I was only referring to the project's former name. Which was a big blunder of a decision. As boneheaded as G.W. Bush at one time calling the war on terror a "Crusade".

"Saying that building the mosque near Ground Zero would be an insult...is as stupid..."

You have no argument from me. I do not disagree with the building, the faith of the builders, or the building's location. Only the former provocative name. And I already commended them for choosing a better name.

dmarks said...

(Arthur, about the book: did the Ottoman Empire ever control any part of Spain?)

Arthurstone said...

(Arthur, about the book: did the Ottoman Empire ever control any part of Spain?)

Nope. The Ottomans ran up against it at Vienna.

This is interesting:

Top 10 Cities of the Year 1000

Name Population
1 Cordova, Spain 450,000
2 Kaifeng, China 400,000
3 Constantinople (Istanbul), Turkey 300,000
4 Angkor, Cambodia 200,000
5 Kyoto, Japan 175,000
6 Cairo, Egypt 135,000
7 Baghdad, Iraq 125,000
8 Nishapur (Neyshabur), Iran 125,000
9 Al-Hasa, Saudi Arabia 110,000
10 Patan (Anhilwara), India 100,000

For what it's worth take a look at the condition of the rest of Europe at the peak of Moorish rule in Cordoba. One of the favored European pastimes circa 1000AD was starvation. Seems the feudal system didn't do such a good job for those not actually lord of the manor.

No comparison. By virtually any conceivable measurement Cordoba was the most advanced society on the continent.

Then following on you can take a look at how Jews fared in Europe from then until, say, the mid twentieth century.

There's a fair amount of material.

Suggested reading:

"The Year 1000: What Life Was Like at the Turn of the First Millennium: An Englishman's World" by Robert Lacey and Danny Danziger

dmarks said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
dmarks said...

I've read other books by Lacey.

"Advanced city" does not excuse the cultural intolerance, forced theocracy and other problems that make the name of the city a very bad symbol for some sort of interfaith peace or understanding between Judaeism, Islam, and other faiths based on mutual respect. Symbols of the old Islamic empires, especially those of colonial outposts in conquered non-Muslim lands give a message of "Sure there will be peace, as long as you submit completely to my rules".

Do you agree with the removal of the name?

I'm full aware of how the Jews were treated in Christian Europe vs Islamic Europe. Major oppression both ways, even if one is worse than the other. Like splitting hairs over how Blacks were treated in antebellum Maryland vs how they were treated in antebellum Alabama.

Arthurstone said...

Of course I don't 'agree with the removal of the name'.

The creators of the center can call it whatever they like and Cordoba their choice for reasons I happen to agree with.

It's a free country.

Remember?

Shaw Kenawe said...

"...in conquered non-Muslim lands give a message of "Sure there will be peace, as long as you submit completely to my rules".

Sounds like what the white Christian Europeans declared when they landed in South and Central America and how they dealt with the Native Americans, whom they believed were savages.

Christians tortured and burned people they believed were heretics or Jews and others who would not convert.

Your argument that Islam didn't play nice with infidels ignores the exact behavior of the Christians when they were the dominant religion in Europe.

Building the mosque near Ground Zero, [where one already exists] would be a symbol of this country's strength in its commitment to uphold its Constitution--even when it is a difficult thing to do.

dmarks said...

Shaw said:

"Sounds like what the white Christian Europeans declared when they landed in South and Central America and how they dealt with the Native Americans, whom they believed were savages."

Yes, I had similar comparable examples in mind. This happened in the rest of North America also.

"Your argument that Islam didn't play nice with infidels ignores the exact behavior of the Christians"

It doesn't ignore it. It's not related to the mosque and the naming issue, that's all.

"Building the mosque near Ground Zero, [where one already exists] would be a symbol of this country's strength in its commitment to uphold its Constitution--even when it is a difficult thing to do."

I agree. I mentioned my only objection to the project earlier. An objection that has been removed now that the aggressive name has been removed.

Arthurstone said...

The 'aggressive name' has been removed?

When?

Have you shared this information with the media?

An Observer said...

The objection to the mosque near ground zero because of its insensitivity is a separate issue from the photos above Shaw's subject post.

What is the objection to a mosque being built in Murfreesboro where someone scrawled "not welcome" across the sign announcing a mosque will be built there, other than anti-Islamic hatred encouraged by FAUX news and other extremists on the Right?

And what does that woman mean by holding a sign saying "This is not your country"?

There is a disgusting movement in this country, encouraged by FAUX News and the likes of Beck and other idiots on the Right to demonize an entire religion and turn weak-minded, ill-informed Americans against their neighbors.

But it is in the grand American tradition of hating what is the other.

It is as American as hanging nooses from trees.

dmarks said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
dmarks said...

Observer: It's pretty clear that these objectors don't want a mosque anywhere in the nation. Ignoring the First Amendment.

Also of interest is the recent Swiss mosque ban.

dmarks said...

The media can pick it up at Wikipedia any time they want to.

"With the name proving to be inflammatory, its investors subsequently renamed the project "Park51".[24]"

I also did not know that the aggressive (no quotes needed) name was removed until I found this a day or two ago.

(I also found out now that the specific mosque in Cordoba was actually a orignally a church which the Moorish invaders stole and desecrated, proving just how much the invaders respected the religions of the occupied people in Spain. Not a good name to use. What next, will someone launch a Christopher Columbus Center to improve white relations with Native Americans?)

Park51. A new name, but without the connotations of aggression and religious intolerance.

Rob said...

Proposal for mosque opponents:

http://newspaperrock.bluecorncomics.com/2010/08/opposing-churches-near-massacre-sites.html

If Republicans could run a corpse for president, they'd run Reagan, not Falwell. If the corpse won, I don't think we'd notice much difference from the first Reagan administration.