Dave Miller is our guest poster this week at P.E. Here are some thoughtful and insightful questions that he's asking of conservatives and liberals. I hope you give these questions your serious consideration and serious answers.
Thank you, Dave.
2022 -- The year of our midterm elections.
To mark the occasion, I’ve decided to offer up five questions to both conservatives and progressives alike. Questions that will give you a chance, not to vent, but to think. A chance to see how people of other political stripes think about issues facing their respective tribes. And hopefully, if people really think on a few of these, maybe some will grapple with what I see as some of the difficult questions facing our political leaders today.
I’ll start with questions for my conservative friends first, and then follow up with another set for my progressive amigos.
1. Conservatives, especially in the 2020 elections, decried mail-in and expanded no reason absentee voting. Many have called for a return to in person one day voting. In California, there are 13 districts with over 200,000 active voters. In Texas, there are 33 districts with more than 200,000 voters. Similarly, in both Rhode Island and Idaho, there are two districts with more than 200,00 active voters.
If we calculate that the average voter will need 10 minutes to wade through his or her ballot, and those polling locations were open 12 hours, we would need on average, at least 2500 voting machines in each of these districts. Plus staff.
When you extrapolate this across the US, it will mean millions of new voting machines and a massive ramp-up in hiring.Given that elections are in the domain of states, how should we fund this?
2. If we look around the world, the United States is an outlier when it comes to gun violence. Simply put, more people die as a result of gun violence annually in the United States than anywhere else in the world.
What should be done to stop this violence and how can we make it happen?
3. We all know politicians play fast and loose with the truth. Statements like “He misspoke” and “That statement is no longer operative” can, and should drive us crazy. Most would agree that we should excuse public lies when national security is at stake.
But outside of that instance, can you explain when a presidential statement is a lie and tell me whether you believe a president should strive to always publicly tell the truth?
4. Fact: The events of 1/6 happened. On that day US officers were beaten with flags, poles and other instruments. The US Capitol was invaded and defaced. Congressional offices were ransacked. The vice president was threatened as were members of Congress, many of whom feared for their lives.
Was it wrong for people to resort to violence that day as a means of airing their grievances towards the federal government?
5. And of course, my final question is one of my favorites for conservatives: What ideologies would a conservative hold or behaviors would they exhibit that you would consider extremist and/or dangerous? And should those people be expelled from the GOP?
The other day I offered up five questions for conservatives as we head into the 2022 midterm elections.
Today, the shoe is on the other foot as I offer up five, I hope, equally difficult questions for progressives.
1. Immigration has become a huge issue for people living along the southern US border. The numbers of people trying to enter the US outside of normal immigration procedures has grown exponentially.
Do you believe the US has a right to police our border and take whatever steps are necessary to keep people who try to enter the US illegally out?
2. When a family does not have enough money to pay all of its bills, they sit down and make a plan. That plan usually will include cutting expenses and raising, sometimes through another job, additional revenue. Progressives in government are generally good on the side of raising revenue, usually through more taxes.
Are there some federal programs and expenses you believe we can cut to help balance our budget, or do you believe a balanced budget is unnecessary?
3. All across red, rural America, people are losing jobs as our manufacturing and fossil energy sectors contract. This has led to an economic nightmare as health and education services as well as economic activity in these areas dwindle.
What ideas do you have to address the economic concerns of people who live in these areas and fear losing the homestead and way of life that has been part of their family for generations?
4. After the death of George Floyd, cities across America exploded in rage. Portland is a good example of a city that was gripped in violence, but not the only city. Some protestors supporting Black Lives Matter and Defund the Police movements were anything but peaceful. State, local and federal government buildings were attacked and in some cases fire-bombed across the country. Businesses were broken into and looted.
Was it wrong for people to resort to violence in these protests as a means of airing their grievances towards various government and police agencies?
5. Finally, a twist on the question I always ask conservatives: Every movement or group has its extremists, and progressives are no different.What ideologies would a progressive hold or behaviors would they exhibit that you would consider extremist and/or dangerous?
And should those people be expelled from the Democratic Party?
49 comments:
You seem to be expecting some thought out rational answers. You will not get them. Both sides are beyond that point. Both sides have shown us their violent nature. In this violent atmosphere the liberals offer up defunding the police. The dumbest idea to enter politics in a century. The conservatives are comfortable breaking the law and the Constitution then claim they are protecting both. As long as both sides are lying there is no compromise to be had. These issues will have to be settled through the ballot box. Who the people elect and how those elected representatives vote in the Congress. It's ugly, but it is democracy.
Excellent questions and the balance, for the political blogoshere anyway is amazing.
I have formulated answers to these questions/circumstances that after dedicafed meditation decided to keep them to myself. The reasons are mine and of little use for others. But I will leave you with this...
On the journey to formulate answers to these very important issues and effect change do no harm. Those who understand and practice doing no harm will be the amazing people who will be responsible for turning our national crises of unbridled division around.
Good luck, be safe, be well.
As a proud progressive, allow me to add my two cents.
1. Yes, we have the right and the duty to limit the number of immigrants coming into our nation. We also have a duty and a right to let in enough people who truly need the help, to enrich our workforce and replenish the threads which hold us together as a people. We're not all one color or religion. We don't all vote the same and we don't all have the same education or hopes for the future. Usually though, we all want a chance to do better and to provide a better life for our family. With our rapidly aging workforce, we're making a huge mistake by not allowing in enough people to fill in for lost workers.
2. A balanced budget is a crucial need to every household as well as for our government as a whole. That being said, we also must maintain the flexibility to uplift our people in times of crisis. Where to cut to make some of this happen? The very wealthy should be paying more, imo, and while having the best equipped and trained military is essential to our place in the World, there are billions of wasted dollars in the military budget that would be far better spent on domestic issues.
3. (I may have lost the order here) Extremists are always a problem. Anytime one feels the desire or need to resort to violence in order to get their point across, they have failed and will fail to win over most people. Most Americans, even during these violent and extremist times, want to avoid extremism and violence. The job of tempering that, however, is exponentially more difficult when a few people in one party want to 'burn down the city', and the vast majority of the other party wants to over-run the government and install an insane 'king.'
Great questions, Dave. Very well written, too.
Progressive answers...
1. We need to stop illegals by letting them in legally. Crops are rotting in the fields because there is no one to pick them. Hospitality has no one to clean the rooms and make the beds. We need more workers.
2. Since Reagan, conservatives have spent more money than liberals could ever hope to spend. Liberals have spent less and strived to balance the budget. Tax billionaires until they bleed money.
3. Homesteads. Do you mean the land stolen from the native Americans? Maybe it's time for the homesteaders to move on.
4. Of course it was wrong for people to resort to violence in these protests. Unfortunately, looters mixed in with the protesters. The looters should be tracked down.
5. "What ideologies would a progressive hold or behaviors would they exhibit that you would consider extremist and/or dangerous?" None. progressive ideas barely make up for billionaire thefts.
Dave, Thanks for the thoughtful questions. I'll try to give thoughtful responses.
1. Yes, people trying to enter illegally should be, and are, expelled. Most coming to the border are seeking asylum which is legal. The law says they are entitled to a hearing. The courts have upheld the wait in Mexico provision and Title 42 (entry denied for health reasons) is still enforced. Most of the asylum seekers allowed to stay and wait for hearing are unaccompanied minors. Maybe Repubs screaming about Biden's open border policy gave them the wrong idea. The border isn't open and those awaiting asylum are tested and vaxed(with some exceptions, screw ups).
2. Most households carry debt, mortgage, car payment, loan , credit card, etc. Same with business. The federal govt. isn't a household or a business. The feds have a lot more options for servicing debt. There's things to cut but the real discussion is about fiscal, tax, monetary policy, Keynesian vs supply side, investment vs austerity (a bust), income inequality. It's not a belt tightening or revenue raising only issue. A place to start is % of debt to GDP. It peaked in 2020 and is rending down.
3. Times change. It's tough on folks. Corporations chase cheap labor and get subsidies for offshoring. Consumers want cheap costs. How many bookstores and other small businesses did Amazon, Walmart and other big boxes destroy? Who rents a video or buys a CD anymore. I'm sorry but that's the history of commerce. People adapt.
Jobs in renewable energy outpace fossil jobs 2to 1. Automation put far more coal miners out of work than regulations. Look at who owns the politicians and what they're getting for their investment. It's about tax policy, tax sheltering and tax avoidance. Janet Yellen's 15% global corporate tax minimum is a good start.
4. Violence and looting is never ok and is counter productive. I live about a mile from where George was murdered and it made me sick to see my city burning. Despite claims the contrary by Righties, over 600 people were arrested. Unlike J6 there were actual provocateurs involved. Umbrella man, white guy still not charged but an Aryan Cowboy, Dylan Robinson, a white guy from up near Brainerd serving 5 years and a $12M fine for tossing a molotov cocktail into the 3rd precinct. Other white suburban kids arrested for arson. Can't name them all but anyone can look em up. The looters and arsonists were opportunists and should have been arrested.
I don't know of any Dem. candidate for fed. office who ran on defunding or abolishing the police. It was a reactionary slogan and pretty stupid. The Right took full advantage. There was referendum in Mpls. to restructure the police dept. and it failed.
5. The govt. controlling the means of production. The rest is open for discussion.
Great stuff guys. I hope Shaw keeps it all bookmarked and when the chattering classes say All liberals or All progressives before their pejorative.
Mike, my use of the term "homestead" was not meant to signify anything to do with the Homestead Act. I meant basically a couple who bought a place years ago, handed it down through the generations and now, because the town has essentially closed up, is worthless and the city has no services.
BTW... you guys give me hope. Sadly, I doubt we'll see any conservative alternatives.
Dave, I appreciate your insight. As it happens I too have been pondering the questions you mention.
1. To address the issue of our southern neighbors I did some reading. The idea I like best is easy access work visas for the seasonal workers and one step up security wise passes for those folks working jobs the US citizens won't do (as exhibited by the now hiring signs all over town). Incorporate the working Visas into the 'becoming a citizen' path. Anyone who breaks these rules is treated as someone who has a nefarious purpose and processed to the fullest extent of the law.
2. Universal Basic Income. I'll say it again - Universal Basic Income. Paid for by taxes on the 1% and recovered from monies no longer needed by the Military Industrial Complex (verified by an audit on all the things the Military says they own/spend. Bring the receipts because I'm tired of trillions going 'missing' without the slightest concern by those at the top.) It's been proven that when families are provided cash they spend the majority on food. Studies abound done here in the states and overseas. Also - restart the Civilian Conservation Corps. Make participation a requirement as to a person's ability in order for them to receive UBI. Eliminate welfare means testing - a system designed to rob a person of everything that makes them a person. The CCC will have branches all over with jobs that need to be doing at the local and federal level. I'm talking tree care, wild land conservation, bridge maintenance, road repair, elder care, child care... all our neighbors coming together as needed in a community to make each others lives better.
3. A thriving economy needs balance - in budget, in debt, and in spending. No more unfunded mandates. No more wars to soothe an ego. If someone really wants to go to war they can do as We The People have done for years - find a way to fit the desired item into the budget. Perhaps the sods in control who need such antiquated methods of working out issue can start a fund raiser. But no more indiscriminate spending of our tax dollars.
4. When all legal avenues towards change have been exhausted then protest becomes the only voice available. BLM was never about violence until their peaceful protests were met with rubber bullets and tear gas. I watched as the Memorial Service for George Floyd was set upon by the police. THERE WERE CHILDREN IN THAT CROWD AND THE POLICE DID NOT CARE!!!!!! Until We The People do better I expect no different from those who are being gunned down. If you want a different result quit doing what you did before. Until we all share the same freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution which governs us all, no one is free.
5. There are always those who take an idea to it's ridiculous conclusions. That is human nature. Where I draw the line is when the extremists try to place into law their unreasonable ideas. We The People agreed to put aside our human nature to Smash Things Now in order to live in peace with our neighbors. This is a contract we make with ourselves and others every time we vote. If this great experiment is indeed over then anarchy will be the next wave. I know there are some who idolize authoritarians but they've forgotten our history. Our nation was started as a prisoner and debtors colony. We've never fit in and authoritarians have their work cut out as we can't even get along when we agree (have you watched the infighting unraveling the GQP lately?).
I don't expect any of my ideas to come to fruition even though they are well thought out and will work. From the preliminary numbers I've found on the interwebz We The People might even save some $ with the UBI and community service option I mentioned above. Too bad I'm not Queen of the Forest. :)
Anonymous @January 10, 2022 at 5:08 PMsaid...
"You seem to be expecting some thought out rational answers. You will not get them. Both sides are beyond that point."
I hope you came back to read these very well thought-out rational answers. It appears one side is NOT "beyond that point."
It's too bad a conservative response is missing. I don't expect the trolls from WYD to add anything intelligent, but surely there are conservatives -- HELLO SKUDRUNNER! who can add to the discussion?
Having once been a dyed in the wool conservative I feel comfortable saying the American conservative in 2022 is not the conservative of yesteryear Shaw. But I suppose everybody paying attention knows that already.
I hope many intelligent thoughtfuful conservatives swing by and leave many sensible well thought out comments that lead to open fruitful discourse. However, I find few conservatives up to those higher standards these days. Sigh.
It really is too bad there is no party for those who walk the middle path and consider compromise following heated discussion to be a virtue rather than weakness or an evil pursuit.
As wonderful a tool as the web is the evidence is mounting that the negative impoacts of the web on societal norms may very well outweigh any positive benefits it nas produced. Truth is humankind simply cannot seem to restrain itself from acting like iot always has. Foolish.
Shaw said...
"I don't expect the trolls from WYD to add anything intelligent, but surely there are conservatives -- HELLO SKUDRUNNER! who can add to the discussion?"
Yes... Skud, maybe Silver and... there's got to be someone.
What i like is that there are no real take it or leave it responses here. Sure, everyone feels strong with their views, but there is room for nuance, movement and solution.
These are far cries from the far right view that libs and progressives are unable to actually consider difficult ideas.
"One side is not beyond that point." There in lies the problem. Both sides believe only their side has the correct answers.
I'm sure the conservatives would disagree with a universal salary. The government financially supporting the people might sound good to you, but it's only deeper socialism.
Then there was the blame game about the Floyd riots. The people didn't have the patience to wait for the justice system to work, because they don't believe it works. Yet, the cop was found guilty and is sitting in jail now. But the people just had to go outside the law to make themselves feel better.
When I talk about well thought out answers, I mean answers that could be compromised for both sides, not just one side saying here are the correct answers. Do it our way, or you are just unreasonable.
Both Sides nonsense is to be expected from Fascists. Congrats.
Here are my thoughts on the progressive side of my list...
1. Immigration. First, we need more people. Some of you have mentioned this. We can and should immediately move millions of people out of the shadows and into the system. Make people who can show they've been here for years, legal residents with a caveat... if they don't commit major crimes and learn a functional level of English, we'll make the citizens. Then, seal the border to illegal entry. And announce it. While at the same time opening up and speeding up the legal immigration system.
2. This budget stuff is driving me nuts. Grey One says no unfunded mandates. YES! Raise taxes on the super rich, close loopholes to avoid taxes, and forgive student debt. Forgiving that debt would essentially be a tax cut to ppl predisposed, because of their youth, to spend money, helping the economy. But we should be able to serve our people, help folks live well and do it with the money we have.
3. UBI might be a solution here. Look, West Virginia is a good example. Those coal miners are not gonna move into the solar industry. They're just gonna retire. As the jobs in these areas dry up, absent direct subsidies to care for our ppl, I can't solve this, outside of one idea...
Dems need to visit these areas to see what they are up against. And yes, I'd agree that the GOP needs to see more inner city areas too. Because I believe ppl can learn from spending time with the other guys.
4. Violence to make your point is almost always wrong. After the GFloyd killing, I understand the anger. But as one who has seen friends killed in political violence and has had to help rebuild those communities, it ain't gonna solve nothing. And echoing someone else here, Defund the Police was a stupid phrase and cost the Dems the House in 2020.
5. Leftie extremists? The Code Pink ppl. The George W wanted black ppl to die folks. The ppl who really wanted to defund the police. All of those ppl on the left are extreme, in my opinion, in their views.
In the end, I'm really a centrist. I can live with some of the ideas of an older GOP and I dislike some of the far reaching ideas of some on the left. It's just who I am.
And yet, most on the right see me as a flaming lib.
"And yet, most on the right see me as a flaming lib."
That's because they're extremists but won't cop to it.
The Mayor of Minneapolis went out in front of the protesters and told them defunding the police was not an option. He was booed off the stage. (see it on youtube) The City Council overrode the Mayor and Minneapolis lost 600 policemen. Then the crime and murder rate shot up in Minneapolis and now Minneapolis is desperately trying to replace those 600 vacancies. So yes, let's put some thought into these ideas before we allow passion to push us in to bad ideas.
A couple of right wing idiots did not cause all the damage done in Minneapolis. Sure, there were instigators, but the crowd of thousands that destroyed the town were 99% liberal protesters more than willing to cause violence and destruction.
We cannot tax the rich enough to make up our debt. That debt was built up over decades of irresponsible tax cuts and it wasn't just the rich who benefitted from those tax cuts. Again, think before we make stupid decisions. The American people supported those stupid decisions including electing Trump president.
We aren't dealing with a small minority; we are dealing with half the country who got their bigot elected president and might well again. It seems almost certain that Republicans will win back majority in 2022.
Compromise is out the window, and a minority is in no position to demand anything.
Ms. Shaw, I will provide the needed fodder for your followers. I know you would rather have a republican trumper and since I am neither I will still respond. I am neither a republican and certainly not a trumper I am a fiscal conservative who reviews both parties as too fiscally liberal and trump was the best choice against -H-. Neither candidate was acceptable in 2020 so I chose a NA option.
1. We have had mail in voting for decades and I do my voting by mail so apparently I favor mail in voting. It is called absentee voting where you have to request a ballot and one will be sent to you. In person voting is best but sometimes impracticable. Everyone in the country gets mail delivery and if you want to vote you can. I am against mailing millions of unsolicited ballots for people to check a box. All that being said the uproar over mail in ballots is just a ploy.
2. A significant number of those shootings are from illegal firearms. In order to eliminate or significantly reduce gun violence we need to remove guns and turn them into a bumper for a studebaker. We could confiscate legal guns so only criminals have guns but I don't think that is practical. The higher murder rates are in cities that have the strictest gun owner laws so strict laws don't work. The proliferation of gun buyers are those who want to protect themselves because violence is rampant in many cities. Carrying a firearm is a pain in the ass but if you need it, worth doing. The answer may be to prosecute those involved in gun violence not let them go free because they are disadvantaged.
3. Politicians lie because if they told the truth they would never win an election. The the job of the media for years was to monitor and keep in check politicians lies but now they are to invested to report the truth. We do not have a news media we only have talking heads who issue opinions not facts. As to presidents lying they all will do it because the truth hurts. No New Taxes and You Can Keep Your Doctor are both lies. One the speaker couldn't control and the other fits his narrative.
4. That is a real baited question but I'm sure it was meant to be. Was it wrong to resort to violence to air their grievances. No more than resorting to violence to burn cities because they disagree with an action or in support of a movement. I lived in Chicago during the Democratic convention so rioting is not something new. At that time we had a mayor, a democrat of all things, who stopped it with his shoot to kill order to police.
I'll even provide feedback on the progressive questions.
1. Every country tries to protect their borders and at one time so did the US. What is really needed is comprehensive immigration reform. GWB tried to get one but was stopped by his own party. The remainder of presidents have paid it lip service and no more.
2. We cannot have a balanced budget because it would cause to many programs and spending to go away. Cut funds to the military, only provide welfare to those who need it not just want it. Stop giving billions to corrupt forign countries so the leaders can screw their people and enact a fair tax bill so taxes do not become a weapon to be used by politicians.
3. We have politicians who don't think of the unintended consequences of their stupidly. Lets end oil expiration and demand going to battery operated vehicles before we have the infrastructure to to support the demand. Pulling out troops before you pull out people, raising taxes on businesses forcing them to relocate.
4. Answered above
Good Day to All
Well Skud, I might agree with everything you wrote, but you added to the discussion.
As for the question on guns, you offered up no solution. I'll be honest, I expected none from ANY conservative. Because the obvious solution is one no one can abide... so we are left with nothing. Sadly.
I don't think #4 was baited. I've sat with conservatives who have asked "Why not be violent, if that's the only thing people will hear."
I just want to know if conservatives now see violence as acceptable. Some do apparently.
Liberals obviously see violence as acceptable.
Rev, You didn't read my answer about guns. Confiscate them and melt them down or better yet prosecute those in possession illegally. Seldom is someone killed by a lawful gun owner but you should have to take a a firearms class to carry. Some states are allowing carrying without training but that doesn't make sense to me.
As to #4, you need to pick more rational friends
Anonymous @5:47
Please explain how you came to that conclusion. Just stating it doesn't make it so.
skudrunner: "Confiscate them and melt them down..."
You and I know that is impossible. Can we try to make suggestions that are attainable? The Constitution would not allow the confiscation of guns, and everyone knows that -- or should.
Thank you for your contribution. I'll be adding my 2 cents in a day or so. I'm tied up with family obligations just now.
Shaw, I wonder if Anonymous @5:47 read my reply as me defending riots in my comment. So I'll elaborate if that's ok with you. After all, it is your house (as always good thoughts with serendipity sprinkles headed your way.)
As I see it - Universal Basic Income is payment We The People were promised by Voices of Authority back in the late eighties and early nineties that if the workforce would do more with less when the economy stabilized we would all share in the rewards. Only the rewards for the workers never happened. The top 1% took all the monies and left the rest of us with crashed pension plans and an end of the era of workers rights
Anonymous @5:47 You don't know me so let me explain:
It is my most sincere belief once I resort to physical or metaphorical violence I've lost the argument, no matter how honorable my cause. This isn't to say that I don't want to do some smiting when confronted with willful stupidity. I've learned to count to ten in many colorful and diverse ways. I embrace this challenge each day as I deliberately choose to be a light instead of a spreader of darkness.
As we come together as a country we each agree to put aside our violent natures and engage in peaceful self governance. And that works. Usually. Until it doesn't.
George Floyd was the catalyst sparking rage against decades of abuse and continued injustices. Considering the attitude of the officer as he knelt on Mr Floyds neck I'd say the response was measured and well thought out. How indeed can any White person truly understand the heavy reality every Person of Color faces each day, knowing they or their loved ones could die for the crime of not being White? My mom never had to give me 'the talk'. She never had to worry I would be shot while carrying Skittles and Ice Tea. When I went to the park no frantic calls to 911 occurred (Tamir Rice, I will say your name, may your memory be a blessing. I watched you die child, and I will carry you with me for the remainder of my days).
We The People will never be free until this injustice is corrected. When we know better, we do better.
Dave - you said "I just want to know if conservatives now see violence as acceptable. Some do apparently."
Depends on the conservative and where their religious beliefs lie. Not sure you've read the same blogs I waded through to keep tabs on the enemy. As a veteran of the LGBT marriage wars I've read my fair share of imprecatory prayers and there seems to be a theme - warriors for Christ, the battle for our country, the soulless Atheists are going to take over... the projection is epic. And, for a people who were told by their holy book to do unto others as you'd have others do unto you... well, they aren't very good at it. Maybe practice will make perfect? (being very snarky here - not directed at you but those who subvert that which is holy and pure for their own greed and lust of power)
Skud... regarding #4... more rational friends? You've traveled on the Mothership. Read some of their comments or their own blogs. Some of them regularly advocate for violence to right what they see as the nation's ills.
As for gun violence, many crimes are committed with legal arms. This kid who shot up the school in Michigan I believe had a legal gun. So did Rittenhouse. And many accidental shootings come from legally owned arms as well.
I'm all for classes, but conservatives won't allow that. Or gun melting either I'm afraid.
Grey just explained his justification to take the law in his own hands and use violence to force authorities to do what he wants. Again, he won't wait for the system to work, if he did he would have seen the cop found guilty and go to jail.
Grey... practice makes perfect. Nice line. I've seen many threads where religious conservatives claim a "righteous defense of the truth" as a reason for violence.
I don't buy it and I think it taints Christianity.
To the various anons... I generally don't respond to ppl who hide themselves behind the Anon dodge, but between the two of you, or one of you, I'll just say this...
You're wrong.
Hide bound belief in the "Supreme Being" has resulted in great loss of life throughout humankind's history.
Why an otherwise intelligent species uses a belief lacking any concrete verifiable proof to kill other people is insanity beyond compare.
Maybe after we destroy each other as well as our host and the planet regenerates itself to support life a new species with intelligence might get it and actually respect all sentient beings and their life. Won't help us now but, this human race has pretty much got what it ordered.
Sorry Dave if you think I'm wrong. But I calks em as I see em.
Rev, I seldom venture into the realm of the mother ship and wouldn't consider them friends but both sides have preached violence. BLM and ANTIFA are terrorist organizations that are supported and admired by the left and they have caused more deaths and damage than any conservative group.
As to legal firearms that are used to kill. You site a couple of instances and I guess I could find a couple of instances where people were killed by a knife but it is a small minority of cases. I am going to guess the very few of the 800 people killed in Chicago last year were killed or shot with a legal firearm. Catch someone with an illegal gun and they are back on the street in a day. We have lost the desire to punish criminals and the smash and grab crowd is a perfect example. Let them steal and shoot because they know they can.
Shaw,
Please eliminate the anonymous category to satisfy your friend Dave, even if they do have relevant thoughts about the post.
What's in a name.........................?
A person is certainly not hiding if they are giving their honest thoughts.
Maybe they are protecting themselves from being viciously attacked by some of the commentors here simply because they disagree with their ideas.
Anon, I agree with Rev on his stance regarding not using the identifier of Anon to hide behind. How many anonymous people are there and if you have a view on a subject that you are ashamed of then you have no conviction of your view. Pick a name and stick by it so at least people can identify which anon is posting.I get attacked constantly by people who are wrong but I stand by my view because I know I am right.
I have no blog and I'm not going to open one just to get a name which wouldn't tell you anything about me anyways. My words tell you who I am.
By the way, your blogger ID says nothing about you. No identifying facts at all.
Why would Shaw keep the anonymous tag? One click and she could eliminate it. Don't put this on me.
Either by skudrunner or anonymous neither I nor anyone else knows you, really. We know only your position/beliefs.
The moment one knows, or more accurately thinks they know, all other possibilities are severed. Food for thought.
"Ignorance means, in another word, concrete. To be caught by a concrete idea is ignorance" ... SSR.
Skud,
You've made some reasonable points.
But, come on, man. "BLM and ANTIFA are terrorist organizations that are supported and admired by the left and they have caused more deaths and damage than any conservative group."
This claim is unsupported by facts or evidence. BLM has members. How many actual members have killed anyone? You have no idea, do you?
How many actual BLM members have been charged with arson? You have no idea, do you?
Antifa has no "membership" or organization. It is largely comprised of anarchists, not progressives or leftists. Their violence and vandalism are not condoned by progressives.
But look at the real insurrectionist terrorists like Proud Boys and Oath Keepers. They are Trumpists and insiders within Trump's coup.
NO comparison.
Just the Oklahoma bombing killed more than your alleged BlM members and antifa combined.
There are many other mass shootings and murders by the Klan and other radical Right racists that put them on a par with Jihadists.
skud: "BLM and ANTIFA are terrorist organizations that are supported and admired by the left and they have caused more deaths and damage than any conservative group."
Not a correct statement.
"Trump frequently accuses the far-left of inciting violence, yet right-wing extremists have killed 329 victims in the last 25 years, while antifa members haven't killed any, according to a new study
New research, based on almost 900 politically-motivated plots and murders in the US since 1994, found only one person's death in the last 25 years was linked to "antifa" or anti-fascists, and the person who died was the attacker.
In comparison, over that same period, 329 murders were linked to the far-right.
When the label was broadened from anti-fascists to left-wing violence, it found 21 victims had been killed since 2010, compared to 117 in right-wing violence in the same time period.
Jihadist groups were responsible for 95 people's deaths since 2010.
The database, which was compiled by a thinktank called the Center for Strategic and International Studies, was launched after Trump's administration spent several months stoking the possibility of left-wing violence, especially during the George Floyd protests.
Seth Jones, a counter-terrorism expert, who helped create the dataset, told The Guardian: "Left-wing violence has not been a major terrorism threat."
He said: "The most significant domestic terrorism threat comes from white supremacists, anti-government militias and a handful of individuals associated with the 'boogaloo' movement that are attempting to create a civil war in the United States."
SOURCE
skud, if you can come up with evidence to prove your point, please do so.
Top law enforcement officials say the biggest domestic terror threat comes from white supremacists.
Attorney General Merrick B. Garland and Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro N. Mayorkas told senators on Wednesday that the greatest domestic threat facing the United States came from what they both called “racially or ethnically motivated violent extremists.”
“Specifically those who advocate for the superiority of the white race,” Mr. Garland told the Senate Appropriations Committee.
The cabinet secretaries’ comments reflected a dramatic shift in tone from the Trump administration, which deliberately downplayed the threat from white supremacists and similar groups, in part to elevate the profile of what former President Donald J. Trump described as violent threats from radical left-wing groups.
Last year, a former head of the Department of Homeland Security’s intelligence branch filed a whistle-blower complaint in which he accused the department of blocking a report about the threat of violent extremism and described white supremacists as having been “exceptionally lethal in their abhorrent targeted attacks in recent years.”
Is that the same garland who said parents who care about their children's education are terrorists and should be monitored by the FBI.
Antifa is a left-wing anti-fascist political movement in the United States. As a highly decentralized array of autonomous groups, antifa uses both nonviolent and violent direct action to achieve its aims. It was not them or BLM who burned portland and minneapolis.
At least 11 Americans have been killed while participating in political demonstrations this year and another 14 have died in other incidents linked to political unrest, according to new data from a non-profit monitoring political unrest in the United States.
Nine of the people killed during protests were demonstrators taking part in Black Lives Matter protests.
skudrunner, you always deflect and change the subject. Violence is never a means to an end. But violence is as American as apple pie. Remember how people achieved their rights -- through violence. Women DIED during the fight for suffrage. People DIED during the fight to establish unions. People DIED during the fight for Civil Rights in the 50s and 60s. Also recall the colonists here in America who DIED in the violence to achieve independence from England. Do you have any idea what started BLM? What they've demonstrated against? Or are you being deliberately obtuse?
What happened at the Capitol on J6 was NOT a fight to achieve rights or to protest an injustice, it was a fight to stop the Constitutionally required certification of the electoral votes, BASED ON DONALD J. TRUMP'S BIG LIE THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN.
The people who attacked the Capitol and committed sedition against the United States were not fighting against injustice or to gain rights. Those people were fighting for a LIE and for a LIAR, A CHEAT, AND A FRAUD.
Donald J. Trump needs to be punished for his crimes.
BTW, many men in my family fought against fascists in Europe during WW II. I supposed one could call them antifas as well.
Ms Shaw, of course he needs to be punished for not running to the front of the marchers and get them to stop. What would that punishment be I vote GITMO. Maybe all presidents should be prosecuted for being a liar. WMD's, You can keep your doctor, I will unite the country and am not in favor of the green new deal, no new taxes, I didn't have sex with that women and yes march to the capital and protest a crooked election.
Trump had far more successes for the American people, that the obama, biden harris administration has had in nine years but he was mean and had mean tweets.
The next ticket should be Gabbard/Noam
"Is that the same garland who said parents who care about their children's education are terrorists and should be monitored by the FBI."
Oh, Skuddy...Could you please show us that quote?
Are you sure this wasn't addressing parents who THREATEN school boards and teachers, because of their racism or ignorance about CRT?
You've really gone off the rails on this one.
Also how can antifa be a "highly decentralized array of autonomous group" and still be a political movement? This makes no sense whatsoever.
That is quite the oxymoron.
Antifa's ONLY purpose is to physically confront fascists. That's not exactly a party platform, public policy or legislative initiative.
They have no voice in the political arena, whereas white sensationalist Oath Keepers and Proud Boys eagerly abetted Trump's coup.
See the difference?
skud: "Ms Shaw, of course he needs to be punished for not running to the front of the marchers and get them to stop. What would that punishment be I vote GITMO."
In a sane country, Trump would be shunned and not able to run for public office ever again. Trump incited seditionists to interfere and nullify a free and fair election based on a disgusting lie. Trump could not handle the fact that he lost. BIG TIME. No malignant narcissist can handle public humiliation. Trump incited the attack on the United States government. He could have stopped it. His thugs would have gotten word of his pleas to go home.
skud: "Maybe all presidents should be prosecuted for being a liar." NOT ALL PRESIDENTS INTEFERE WITH THE TRANSITION TO A NEW GOVERNMENT. Trump is the only POTUS who tried to stop the certification of the electoral vote and the ONLY POTUS who tried to stop the peaceful transfer of power from one president to the other. That is one of the hallmarks of our democratic republic, and Trump tried to destroy that. In fact, he's made it easy now for any other despot to do so and to succeed. That you don't see the difference between presidents who exaggerate or lie about policy and a president who incited an insurrection against his own government shows me that you don't care about what could have happened to America as a result of Trump infamy!
It's plain for all to see hear that you don't think inciting an insurrection against one's own government/country is a big deal. That's why you and people who think like you have put this country's future as a representative democracy in peril.
I can safely state that neither George Washington nor any of our founding fathers would agree with your dismissive attitude toward what Trump tried to do.
Shame!
"It's plain for all to see hear..." HERE, not hear.
Dave Dubya,
skudrunner has a habit of coming here and making false statements like the one above on AG Garland:
Fact check: FBI is not using threat tags on parents who protest at school board meetings
The claim: FBI's counterterrorism division adds threat tags to parents who protest school boards
Attorney General Merrick Garland issued a memorandum Oct. 4 directing the FBI to address "threats of violence against school administrators, board members, teachers, and staff" after some groups aired concerns regarding the safety of public schools.
The nature of the FBI's work in that sphere came into question Nov. 16, when Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio, wrote a letter to Garland saying House Republicans received information from a whistleblower that the FBI was using a specific "threat tag" to track potential investigations.
An array of false claims about those tags are now circulating on social media.
"BREAKING: House Republicans have obtained whistleblower documents showing that the FBI is using its counterterrorism division to investigate and add 'threat tags' to parents who are protesting school boards," reads text of a Facebook post shared Nov. 16 that was subsequently corrected by the user.
The post generated close to 2,000 likes and more than 600 shares in about a week. Several social media users shared similar versions of this post as well.
But the claim is false.
The proof attached to Jordan's letter, which is an email exchange between FBI personnel, only has evidence the tags will be applied to investigate and assess threats directed against school officials, as other independent fact-checking organizations have noted.
Nothing in the letter states that the tag will be used against parents who protest at school board meetings.
A tag is a statistical tool used to track information for review, according to the FBI, which uses a wide array of tags to track cases of different types, such as human trafficking or drug trafficking.
The FBI said in an emailed statement to USA TODAY that it must have information "indicating the potential use of force or violence and a potential violation of federal law," for a division to open an investigation.
The FBI statement said the agency has "never been in the business of investigating parents who speak out or policing speech at school board meetings."
SOURCE
This is what is breaking this country: People who pass along what they think are "facts" without bothering to find out whether what they're passing along is true.
Skud NEVER checks the veracity of his claims, which are mostly inaccurate and probably found on far right new sources or blogs.
This one about AG Garland was refuted all over the internet. What skudrunner claimed about AG Garland is FALSE. And he's spreading around.
Shame!
No parent has been arrested by the FBI for being a terrorist. Some have been arrested by local police for causing a disturbance and being unruly. I have no problem with that.
Appologies for the honesty, but, at the core of skud's arguments rest a pile of horse manure. A few reasonable points only slightly impoves the stench.
Don't post if the truth stings too much Shaw. However, skud is basically a good person with a good heart holding posistions that woud sit fine with white supremacists and pro authoritarian type. Basically he, like SO many others overlook that which needs the scrutiny.
Glad to see those who are good with the FBI investigating parents who protest poor educators. Since the AG is over the department of justice it was in his purview so he is responsible for investigating citizens who voiced concern over their children's education. If you think the government makes better decisions than a parent then I can understand your critique.
As to being a white supremacist and pro authoritarian is amusing. I support open markets and less government which is opposite to government is great. The current administration has proven that we have total incompetence and the only thing they are good at is creating crisis.
skud, you just couldn't leave it alone, could you?
You haven't provided one receipt for any of your claims and now just doubled down that we as commentators are fine with governmental over reach. Really??????
So lets play this game, shall we?
Using your rules of logic I guess you are fine with parents threatening members of school boards. You approve of citizens settling their differences with violence instead of reason and discussion. Remember, we are using your rationale, not reality, not facts.
Bring your receipts (quotes to support your wild claims) next time please.
I'm going to have to agree with whomever suggested you sound like a white supremacist. Have you heard the phrase - methinks they protest too much - or words to that effect. If you don't want to be taken for something you claim you are not perhaps you should watch what you say.
"Glad to see those who are good with the FBI investigating parents who protest poor educators."
Isn't Skuddy just precious? Bless his heart.
I provided evidence that refutes skudrunner’s claim that the DOJ sics the feds on parents who protest their children’s poor education at school board meetings. Skud ignored the truth and doubled down on his false claim. As I said, this is what’s breaking our country: people who spread lies and disinformation, which in turn, enrages them enough to commit acts of violence.
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