The reality:
In the 1950s when many people, like the person quoted above, believed it was the golden age of America, because God was not "kicked out," Americans with dark skin were prohibited from attending taxpayer funded schools in cities and towns where they paid those taxes. Americans with dark skin were forced to send their children to inferior schools so they would not mix with children who had white skin:
"This photograph shows the condition of many African American schools in the first decades of the twentieth century. Many states simply did not allocate enough funds to provide “equal” schools in the separate black schools. In South Carolina, the resulting inadequate condition for black children led to the Briggs v. Elliot case in 1954. The Briggs case would become one of the five included in the Brown decision."
Marion Post Wolcott, photographer. African American School House near Summerville, South Carolina, 1938. Gelatin silver print. FSA-OWI Photograph Collection, Prints and Photographs Division, Library of Congress (26) [digital ID# br0026a]
When God was not "kicked out," Americans with dark skin were hunted down by the KKKers in the South and mid-West, tortured and killed with impunity.
Americans with dark skin had to sit in the back of the bus, drink from a separate water fountain, attend separate schools; and when traveling across the country, they had to seek and find hotels/motels that would accommodate African-Americans.
In the years prior to the 1950s, when many people like the person quoted above, believed it was the golden age of America, when God wasn't "kicked out." African-Americans were treated extremely unequally in the US and denied equality through law.
When God wasn't "kicked out," of American schools, and religion was practiced without any constraints (as it is today), horrible living, educational, and health conditions were tolerated for African-Americans, because they were given the status of 2nd-class citizens, even after the Constitution gave them full citizenship and all the same rights that white Americans had.
I'm just wondering why all those people who practiced their religion in those days did not see the grave injustices being done to their fellow Americans with dark skin? Were they willfully blind to how their fellow citizens were being treated?
How was America better in those days when God wasn't "kicked out?"
Can someone explain and then perhaps enlighten the people who still believe life for ALL American citizens was better when God was in the public class rooms and everywhere else in our culture.
When I read the history of how our fellow American citizens with dark skin were discriminated against, tortured and killed, and their children forced to attend inferior schools, I don't come away with the idea that this country was better when God wasn't "kicked out."
In fact, IMO, it was worse. So why are some of my fellow Americans so nostalgic for those days?
18 comments:
Evil is not our biggest problem. Here or anywhere. IGNORANCE is.
"When I read the history of how our fellow American citizens with dark skin were discriminated against, tortured and killed, and their children forced to attend inferior schools, I don't come away with the idea that this country was better when God wasn't "kicked out."
In fact, IMO, it was worse. So why are some of my fellow Americans so nostalgic for those days?"
Because the person who wrote that about God being kicked out and America going to hell never gave a thought to how horrible life was for black people were treated. Like most Americans today, they have no idea how they suffered, how they feared for their lives if they tried to buck the all-white system and how they were invisible to the rest of the white country. Now that there's a possibility that the country will become blacker and browner, they are terrified of losing their white privilege, and could end up being treated the way white people treated minorities.
Sadly, and this is my tribe, the Christian Church, Catholic, Protestant and a million iterations, has been mostly wrong on science, women as leaders, women as voters, slavery, civil rights, birth control, interracial marriage and more for centuries.
All I can conclude is that if God does indeed exist, and I believe he does, the great majority of what we as believers have been taught and how we've interpreted scripture is either wrong, or we've seriously misunderstood what the Bible says for years.
If there ever was an inflection point for the church, we are in it.
Man created god in his own likeness. Hence the ignorance found in ALL churches. With the possible exception of Buddhism. And most westerners have no idea of what Buddhism is nor do they care to know. The manufactured self, its ego, greed & control, seems to be the focus in the west.
Anon, Fed Up, Dave M.
Well, for one thing, the O.T. and the N.T. both condone slavery. In fact, as you know, the Bible was used as evidence that slavery was allowed by God. I don't know how people who read and live their lives by the Bible work that out.
For me, the simplest explanation is that the people who collected those stories and wrote them down were of a culture where slavery was accepted and normal. How could anyone believe that the creator of our galaxy and the billions and billions of other universes discovered by our powerful telescopes -- how could such a powerful creator of everything from the micro to the macro be so utterly wrong about people owning other people and treating them so cruelly? It doesn't make any sense to me, but I do understand that millions of people believe that the Bible is the written Word of God.
From the Apostle Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians, VI, 5-7: “Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; not with eye-service, as men-pleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; with good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.”
And yet the civilized world agrees that slavery is evil. How do believers who sincerely believe the Bible was inspired by God reconcile this?
I remember reading a book by someone, I wish I could remember his name. He is a former congressman and wrote about how people follow the teachings of the bible. One thing he wrote has stuck with me ever since. He said something like "how can we adhere to the writings of a tribe of men that basically took someone who had epileptic fits and either threw them out of the village or killed them outright saying they were possessed by demons?"
@Dave "If there ever was an inflection point for the church, we are in it."
How you can talk about fellow Christians this way is abhorring. Furthermore, it is not Christians that are the issue it is all these religions purporting to know what God wants when clearly all Christians should know or maybe don't out of ignorance - Jesus never came to start a religion but to have a personal relationship with us.
The US has been kicking God out of everything since the inception of the UCLA in around 1948. I do believe we have the right to practice what we believe our founding fathers envisioned. You cannot take God out of a nation and expect it to remain moral.
There is nothing moral about the USA anymore. Is that why you are down there in Mexico?
Elizabeth wrote:
"How you can talk about fellow Christians this way is abhorring."
S.K.: I can't speak for Dave, but I can offer some comments on your post, since this is my blog.
Dave said nothing abhorrent about Christians. He stated facts when he wrote how often the Christian Church -- Protestant and Catholic -- have been WRONG on so many issues. Slavery being just one, and all the others he mentioned. The Christian teachings on those issues were WRONG! That is not being abhorrent; it is being factual.
Elizabeth: "Furthermore, it is not Christians that are the issue it is all these religions purporting to know what God wants when clearly all Christians should know or maybe don't out of ignorance - Jesus never came to start a religion but to have a personal relationship with us."
S.K.: Then why do Christians in this country want their religion to be nationalized? The Jewish religion, for example, allows for abortion up to "quickening," but the Christians on the SCOTUS have forbid Jewish people and people who are not religious or are of other religions with different beliefs about divided cells and embryos to seek reproductive care. Some members of the SCOTUS even go so far as saying there is no law of privacy for even birth control.
The United States IS NOT a Christian nation. A majority of its people are Christian. A majority of Americans (so far) are white; but we do not call America a White Nation, do we.
Elizabeth: "The US has been kicking God out of everything since the inception of the UCLA in around 1948.
S.K.: I don't know what the UCLA of 1948 is. Can you elaborate for me? BTW, God is not "kicked out" of everything. In my little neighborhood of just 234 acres, in blue, blue Boston, there are 5 Christian churches. In every city and town in Massachusetts one can find tall spires of Christian churches of every denomination; Jewish temples; Jehovah Witness Meeting houses; mosques; etc. Anyone anytime can stop and pray in the streets; in stores; in schools -- anyone is free to pray. Why do some people insist on making a PUBLIC display of their religion? Don't they believe their God hears their prayers when they pray to themselves? Why make it public and force their private religion into the public arena?
Elizabeth: "I do believe we have the right to practice what we believe our founding fathers envisioned. You cannot take God out of a nation and expect it to remain moral."
That last sentence just isn't true.
Sweden, for one example, is one of the most secular nations in the world. The majority of Swedish citizens are members of the Church of Sweden, but very few are practicing members. Sweden has legally been a secular state since 2000 when the Church of Sweden was separated from the state.
Sweden has a low crime rate, drug use rate, etc. The U.S. has a violent crime rate 3x more than Sweden.
Religion does NOT necessarily make a country moral. Afghanistan is run by religious mullahs and is one of the most dangerous countries in the world!
I understand you sincerely believe what you wrote, but facts just don't bear it out.
Every American is free to practice his/her religion in any church, synagogue, mosque he/she chooses. We Americans just prefer that those who do practice religion practice it in the privacy of their own home/family and churche and not impose their personal beliefs on people who do not share them.
It's a wonder the black community are still such deep believers given all they have been through at the hands of so-called Christians. But then according to the Old Testament God himself was a murderous, vengeful, bigoted God so it's no surprise his followers are also.
Elizabeth... the data to back up what I said is overwhelming and widely available. Almost 40% of pastors in the US have considered resigning in the last 2-3 years because the stress and dissension in the pews is too much for them to handle.
Tithes are down across the country and churches are closing at a record pace.
Our reputation has never been worse. Less people are committing to following Christ, baptisms are down in every denomination and church attendance is at an all time low.
Young people are leaving the church as soon as they achieve freedom from their parents.
Disbelieve these statements if you wish, but PEW, Barna and PRRI [Public Religion Research Institute] all have data showing what I've written is true. And each of these organizations is mostly Christian friendly.
In addition, the Southern Baptist denomination, the largest protestant group in the US echos the fall in decisions for Jesus and baptisms.
No matter how we slice it, the facts say the Christian Church, at least here in America, is in a bad place.
The reasons are myriad. Some Trump related, some not. Some secular, some not. Some political, some not. But anyone who denies the place we are in, is simply not seeing what is evident.
Believe me, I'm not happy about any of this. I'm heartbroken. But as Shaw said, I'm just stating things as I see them. And I'm seeing from a leadership position inside the church, after discussions with leaders from multiple denominations.
In all my life, I've never seen anything like what I am seeing now.
As for why I serve in Mexico, it's because God called me there. Over 30 years ago.
Finally, I'm struggling to understand what was so abhorrent about what I wrote? The sad fact is the church and Christianity was wrong on science [see Galileo], women as leaders [see the Catholic Church and the Souther Baptists], race [see the churches defense of slavery for hundreds of years], Civil Rights [read how Christians were proponents of the KKK] and interracial marriage [look up how Bob Jones University, a Christian University, prohibited interracial dating, but not white dating in the 1970's and the number of southern religious leaders who opposed the SCOTUS decision in the Loving case in 1967].
I am truly sorry if these truths offend you. But support for all of these positions was very strong within Christian Churches of all stripes, not just for years, but for generations, including at our founding. And it includes our Founding Fathers who supported slavery and genocide against Native Americans.
Sadly no amount of people saying those folks weren't "real Christians" can excuse it.
Because for centuries, the "good Christians" kept quiet while this stuff happened. And continue to remain silent.
In the time of slavery in the US, the country was even more Biblical. Some Christians interpreted black skin as the "curse of Ham" from the book of Genesis, God's affirmation that black people were supposed to be subjugated. A few still believe this.
the people who collected those stories and wrote them down were of a culture where slavery was accepted and normal
Any "sacred text" will reflect the morality and knowledge of the people who wrote it, who are products of their time. Since sacred texts are supposed to be eternal and immutable, they can't change to reflect progress and new knowledge. Even if a new religion were started today, with its "Bible" reflecting the values and knowledge of 2022, within a few centuries it would be hopelessly primitive and morally out-of-date as society continued to evolve. So, any "morality" based on religion is inherently regressive.
Elizabeth: There is nothing moral about the USA anymore
It is baffling that anyone can look at the US of today and claim it is less moral than it was in the time of slavery and the Indian genocide. Nothing bad that is happening in this country today is even remotely on the same level of evil as those crimes. A twisted "morality" indeed.
Infidel753: "It is baffling that anyone can look at the US of today and claim it is less moral than it was in the time of slavery and the Indian genocide. Nothing bad that is happening in this country today is even remotely on the same level of evil as those crimes. A twisted "morality" indeed."
(Add to that how the U.S. excluded Chinese immigrants from attaining citizenship, even as they labored to build this country. The Chinese Exclusion Act was a United States federal law signed by President Chester A. Arthur on May 6, 1882, prohibiting all immigration of Chinese laborers for 10 years. The law excluded merchants, teachers, students, travelers, and diplomats.)
I don't understand it either. The only explanation that may be useful is that those who actually believe "There is nothing moral about the USA anymore" do not know our U.S. history or do know it and believe knowing it or teaching it will make certain parts of our population "feel uncomfortable."
The fact that we abolished slavery, stopped the genocide of Native Americans (but broke every treaty we made with them), and allowed Chinese laborers who helped build this country attain citizenship shows, at the least, that the U.S. had some understanding of the immorality of its brutal treatment of those populations.
Elizabeth did not explain why she believes there is "nothing moral about the USA anymore."
I'd like to know why she believes that.
Infidel wrote... "In the time of slavery in the US, the country was even more Biblical. Some Christians interpreted black skin as the "curse of Ham" from the book of Genesis, God's affirmation that black people were supposed to be subjugated. A few still believe this."
You mentioned "some Christians"... I would argue for a number of years, it was many Christians. How else to explain the years of struggle after the Civil War with the KKK or the Southern Baptist Convention, which split with the Northern Baptists because they didn't believe slavery was evil, or bad.
You also stated "a few still believe this". I don't know how you define a few, but I will tell you the number is way more than a few. I was in a Southern Baptist Sunday School class in Texas a few years back with my African American wife and the teacher went into a whole lesson on how God ordained and approved of "Biblical Slavery".
For far too many believers in certain areas of the US, to admit slavery as a concept is a bridge too far, so they focus on redefining and approving of slavery in the Bible as the only way to reconciling their beliefs.
Because to admit they, and their ancestors, who they saw and continue to see as great Christian leaders, were wrong and racist is just too difficult.
Elizabeth...
I've continued to think about your comment. I could be wrong, but it seems like you are upset that what I wrote might make Christians look bad.
Whether that is true or not, I don't know. But I do know this...
For years leaders of Christian churches of all stripes hid the reality of abuse, both sexual and physical from their congregations and denominations because they were afraid that airing "dirty laundry" in public would damage the mission of Christ and hurt their "witness".
It's pretty common knowledge and at least two denominations in the last year have admitted to such behavior.
It's also the same defense Grace Church in So Cal, pastored by John MacArthur used when tapes, emails and more came out about how [he] they shielded admitted child molesters on staff and even counseled a mother to forgive her husband, a staff member, who abused their child and return to the marriage.
Again, all of this is public knowledge. Yet few in the Christian community will step up and offer any criticism of MacArthur and his church because of how important he is in the evangelical community.
You were quick to say what I wrote was abhorrent. If that is true, what does that make a John MacArthur, the leaders in the SBC who hid cases of abusive leaders and pastors for decades and others in the evangelical community who have been exposed and forced to resign in recent years.
The problem is not guys like me who call out our tribe, it's the people who continue to sit quietly by while people are abused and abased, as they have for years.
Not even talking about immigrants or native americans, one needs only to read the book or watch the movie "The Grapes of Wrath" to see how far we've come regarding taking care of our own citizens. Now some would say that's fiction and indeed the director, John Ford thought Steinbeck was exaggerating. That is until Ford himself went around to the various migrant camps to see how fellow American citizens were treated and how they lived. Ford said "if anything, Steinbeck downplayed how awful the situation is".
You had states setting up roadblocks at their borders and checking everyone who came into the state to make sure they were either passing through, or had relatives or a job to go to. If not, people were turned away and not allowed to enter the state if they were looking for a job.
Yup, the greatest evil is sometimes ignorance. The USA, like much of the world is not free of ignorance. This post points out some of this nation's most ignorant views and actions. Supported by the RCC and others or else they were just mysteriously quiet about it.
America has much to be ashamed about. Religious cons and libs ought to at least openly acknowledge the evils perpetrated over the years as the result of their faith and not stand in the way of needed movement relaxing the hold ignorance has on them.
Shaw,
Elizabeth did not explain why she believes there is "nothing moral about the USA anymore."
I'm guessing this is because Biden defeated Trump in a "rigged" election corrupted by rampant "vote fraud".
And now the "evil, baby-killing, godless, commie Democrats" have some power.
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely
Trump had his eyes, mind, and heart set on ABSOLUITE power for himself. As he so famously said during his 1st campaign... Only I can fix it.
Then we had the sedition attempts by Trump and his insurrection (or failed coup) attempt.
I'm betting Elizabeth supported that as well.
Thankfully the less than perfect democrats now have some, but not ALL power.
Lets hope, and work for, the defeat of ALL who continued to support Trump after his attempt to destroy our democratic republic on 01/06/2021.
It is time for a revival of passionate resistance to all forms of tyranny. Including the tyranny of the conservative scotus and the authoritarian republican party.
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