This is in answer to the two comments by Patrick and j_g left on the post below this one:
I'm sorry you both have such violent feelings about this. It seems Senator Obama brings out the best and the worst in people.
I disagree with what you have said, Patrick and JG. And I do so because as many others have pointed out, and what you and other conservatives disregard or willfully ignore, is the fact that many white pastors have spoken against America.
The Reverend Jerry Falwell, along with Pat Robertson, two men who had and have a great deal of influence over millions of Christians in this country, have preached unAmerican sermons to their flocks, and even blamed Americans for the attacks of 9/11. Both of these men have been esteemed by President Bush and his Christian Right followers.
Of course, you'll say that President Bush didn't sit in Falwell's or Robertson's church for twenty years. True. But President Bush and his Christian Right followers approved and embraced what they have preached. Bush and his Christian Right followers never separated themselves from Falwell and Robertson and their toxic anti-American sermons.
President Bush even declared a national day of mourning when Falwell, who blamed Americans for 9/11, died.
Falwell was instrumental in galvanizing millions of American evangelicals into an intolerant, sectarian and authoritarian political movement. Gays, women, secularists, civil-libertarians and other groups who did not fit into Falwell's plan to construct 'One Nation Under God' were demonized on a regular basis and blamed for any catastrophe that happened to the US, natural or man-made. It was God's punishment to all Americans, Falwell and Robertson preached, because this diverse group of AMERICANS did not conform to their brand of Christianity.
And now we have another Republican running for president, John Sidney McCain, II, who felt “proud” to have Pastor John Hagee’s endorsement--another anti-American bigot who called the Catholic Church “the great Whore.” After some pressure, Senator McCain, said he rejected Hagee’s intemperate views and distanced himself—after McCain saw the potential damage it could do to his campaign.
Here are some of Pastor Hagee’s quotes:
On Hurricane Katrina: “All hurricanes are acts of God, because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they were recipients of the judgment of God for that… I believe that Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans.”
On the Catholic Church: “Most readers will be shocked by the clear record of history linking Adolf Hitler and the Roman Catholic Church in a conspiracy to exterminate the Jews.”
On women: “Do you know the difference between a woman with PMS and a snarling Doberman pinscher? The answer is lipstick. Do you know the difference between a terrorist and a woman with PMS? You can negotiate with a terrorist.”
Now I'll talk about the Reverend Francis Schaeffer, a good friend of and visitor to the Ford and Reagan White House. This Right Wing Funadamentalist Christian preacher, according to his own son who served with him (and has since rejected this brand of Christianity), preached the overthrow of the United States Government, otherwise known as treason, if it did not conform to his brand of Christianity:
“If there is a legitimate reason for the use of force [against the US government]... then at a certain point force is justifiable.”
(Imagine if Jeremiah Wright had spoken those words!)
Wright said “God damn America,” because of past injustices this country committed against Americans with black skin. He didn’t advocate the overthrow of its government. There’s a world of difference between saying “Damn you, America, for what you have done!” and “I’m going to destroy you, America, for what you have done!” The first example is a cry of frustration, (Wright) the second is a threat to do harm. (Schaeffer)
But I’ll let Pastor Schaeffer’s son speak for himself:
“Every Sunday thousands of right wing white preachers (following in my father's footsteps) rail against America's sins from tens of thousands of pulpits. They tell us that America is complicit in the "murder of the unborn," has become "Sodom" by coddling gays, and that our public schools are sinful places full of evolutionists and sex educators hell-bent on corrupting children. They say, as my dad often did, that we are, "under the judgment of God." They call America evil and warn of immanent [sic] destruction. By comparison Obama's minister's shouted "controversial" comments were mild. All he said was that God should damn America for our racism and violence and that no one had ever used the N-word about Hillary Clinton.”
Patrick, you say I’m full of shit for seeing this as a racial.
Can you tell me why Senator Obama has been so severely criticized for what his pastor has preached and why you and others like you have not been able to see a parallel to the toxic, hate-filled, anti-American preaching of Right Wing, white fundamentalist pastors like Falwell, Robertson, Hagee, and Schaeffer and many, many others?
These men have declaimed and called down imprecations on America for its sins. And they have been vile toward our fellow gay Americans; they have been mean-spirited toward our fellow Americans who had the misfortune to be living on the Gulf Coast during Hurrican Katrina, they have insulted and condemned our fellow Catholic Americans, and worst of all they have blamed our fellow Americans for the tragedy of September 11.
It is clear to me that some people are willing to ignore the fiery, anti-American and intolerant rhetoric white Christians pastors deliver on Sundays in their churches and on various Christian TV programs, but these same people are too willing to be shocked at the very same rhetoric coming from a black pastor.
I have heard over the last twenty years people dismiss some of Falwell's, Robertson's, Hagee's, and other crackpots, divisive, hate-filled rantings by saying, “Oh well, that’s just Pat, or Jerry, or John being weird again. “
But these same people, who dismiss these loony preachers when what they say is embarrassing or just plain nuts, want Senator Obama to be crucified for belonging to a church where his pastor criticizes and rails against America’s sins and says things that are loony or just plain nuts.
These same people are happy to denounce Senator Obama because his pastor has done exactly what politically connected Right Wing Fundamentalist preachers have done and still do every Sunday.
The only difference between the Fundamenalist Christian pastors and Senator Obama's pastor, Jeremiah Wright, is the color of their skin.
8 comments:
The only difference between the Fundamenalist Christian pastors and Senator Obama's pastor, Jeremiah wright, is the color of their skin.
As I have said, I can't speak for everyone, but it has never been about skin color for me. It's about what they vomit out their mouths.
So just to make it clear, here's my opinion of everyone you bring up:
Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, John Hagee, Francis Schaeffer, and any other preacher who says the kind of shit they say should be condemned, as should Jeremiah Wright.
The problem, and one I originally assumed that Senator Obama faced is that, as a politician, you have to pay lip service to the extremeists of your party, Democrat or Republican. The dipshit preachers you highlight are the right wing's religious albatross, and too many Republicans and conservatives buy into their hate.
What we need to do, especially in the political off years, is clean up our own parties and send GFY notices to all these hate spewing pukes.
But you missed the point of my anger. It was over another person bringing race into the forefront, as though that's what motivates conservatives.
So you believe that the right is up in arms because Obama and Wright are black? And if so, what is your proof?
(For clarification, Sean Hannity is the person who has been on the Obama/Wright story for a while now.)
Pointing to bad behavior to justify bad behavior is a common response for liberals. I myself have condemned Pat Robertson and Falwell because they were just plain wrong. The other two are unimportant minor leaguers and have little effect on anyone but their own small constituency and have little effect on the politcs of the republican party. Year ago Reagan was aked if he was going to return contributions from the Log Cabin Republicans because they were gay. Reagan said no of course not, I'm glad they agree with me enough to contribute to my campaign. Agreement over political issues is one thing but attending a church for 20 years that spews nothing but hatred for people that look like me is another.
I saw a picture in the paper today, it was Obama and Wright standing next to each other. I heard one of my co workers ask, what does that have to do with being elected President? I asked them to picture this; Instead of Obama You place John McCain in the picture and instead of Wright you place David Duke there. I then asked them why would that be an issue in the Presidential election?
Nothing will ever change the fact that Obama sat in Wright's church, attended meetings, took council from Wright and participated in a congregation that espouses hatred for America and for whites. Obama is unqualified to be a President and I believe he is the most cynical of racists. I will never put up with anything in my own life that I cannot say while standing in front of everyone I know or the entire country if need be. Obama cannot justify his racist behavior and is hiding behind slick words written by a speech writers designed to fool those that want to be fooled.
The people that have endorsed Bush or McCain have done so to gain political favor. That's the way that works. Obama's case is much different, the racism and hatred he heard was a way of life for him. The healing in this country will start when people like Obama walk away from the racism that they have been taught and reach out to others that do not look like him,in a truly honest way and not by the parsing of words.
Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, John Hagee, Francis Schaeffer, and any other preacher who says the kind of shit they say should be condemned, as should Jeremiah Wright.--Patrick
You've made my point, Patrick. They should have been condemned and shunned. They weren't. Can you explain why?
As soon as that video of Wright saw the light of day, a deluge of condemnation rained down on him, and Obama was forced to explain to the country why he remained in Wright's church.
To say that the same "should" have happened to the followers of Falwell, Robertson, Hagee, and Schaeffer is dismissive and doesn't address the problem. The fact that millions of people up to the highest reaches of our government saw no problem in their incendiary speeches and continued to honor them with attendance in their churches and with the favor of visits to the WH is the problem.
I am showing how behavior in one group of ministries is accepted, condoned, or overlooked, but when that same behavior is exposed in another ministry, a black one, people are enraged and revulsed.
You, Patrick, I'm sure are not a racist. And JG has said she would not accept that sort of preaching were someone to use it in her church. (I'll answer JG's points in another comment.)
Neither you, nor JG, nor I understand the complexities of being black in a white and often racist society.
For forty years, 1932-1972, this country used poor, illiterate black men as laboratory animals in an experiment testing various treatments for syphilis (black doctors and nurses shamefully participated in this monstrosity, but it was instigated and supported by the United States Public Health Service, and in 1932, when it was begun, I'm guessing there weren't any Afro-Americans in places of authority in that Department.)
I think this hideous example may shed some light on Jeremiah Wright's paranoid accusation about the US government's spreading AIDS in the black community.
"In 1990, a survey found that 10 percent of African Americans believed that the U.S. government created AIDS as a plot to exterminate blacks, and another 20 percent could not rule out the possibility that this might be true. As preposterous and paranoid as this may sound, at one time the Tuskegee experiment must have seemed equally farfetched. Who could imagine the government, all the way up to the Surgeon General of the United States, deliberately allowing a group of its citizens to die from a terrible disease for the sake of an ill-conceived experiment? In light of this and many other shameful episodes in our history, African Americans' widespread mistrust of the government and white society in general should not be a surprise to anyone."
And it's not just Hannity pounding away at this story. I've read the conservative blogs and they are still fuming over Wright's anti-American preaching.
I think I've given you some proof of why I believe this is a racial problem.
I can't make it any plainer.
You dismiss the problem by saying the conservatives and the liberals should give a GFY notice to these people.
Agains I have never seen such a firestorm of anger over any white preacher's idiotic statements.
(I do remember some people's anger over the Falwell/Robertson remarks after 9/11, but no one who was connected to their church or had ever appeared with those men ever paid a political price. People got angry for the moment and got over it. That was the end of it.)
At this rate, I'm going to get seriously disenfranchised.
Neither you, nor JG, nor I understand the complexities of being black in a white and often racist society.
True. But why inject race into it? It just perpetuates the stereotypes. And I'm tired of it, as this post highlights.
As for the reason this is such a deal with Obama, I have already covered that, but let me reiterate the point. Most people are just learning things about Obama's background. And there is a pattern emerging that doesn't match the speeches he has been giving. In addition, in reaction to this, he's been giving political answers to what should be a personal matter. Perhaps if he had come out with the whole truth in an sit-down interview early on rather than adjusting the answer as more info came to light, he wouldn't have been in this situation to begin with.
As I said, I had hoped that he would be defeated in a clean battle on issues. But now the Democrats are going to pay for their support of the Clintons, as Hillary will use this as a springboard to get the nomination.
Okay, now I need a drink.
Pointing to bad behavior to justify bad behavior is a common response for liberals. I myself have condemned Pat Robertson and Falwell because they were just plain wrong. The other two are unimportant minor leaguers and have little effect on anyone but their own small constituency and have little effect on the politcs of the republican party.--JG
I’m not justifying Wright’s behavior. I’ve pointed out his paranoid, anti-American preaching. My point is not to justify, but to ask why the firestorm over his remarks and not when white fundamentalist preachers said things that were just as intemperate and offensive. The fact that you condemned the words of Falwell, Robertson, et.al., is admirable, but we’re talking about the reaction of the entire community in the US—white and black—and how Falwell and Robertson’s remarks never did any political damage to any of their followers, that no one in the conservative arena had to distance him or herself from either of them.
Schaeffer and Hagee are hardly “minor” players, since Schaeffer’s books and lectures are the foundation of the modern-day white evangelical political movement and John Hagee has enormous influence over thousands and thousands of evangelical Christians:
He presides over a non-denominational evangelical church with more than 19,000 active members and receives millions of dollars in total compensation for his position as CEO at his non-profit corporation, Global Evangelism Television (GETV). He is one of the highest-paid televangelists.
Hagee is the President and CEO of John Hagee Ministries which telecasts his national radio and television ministry carried in America on 160 TV stations, fifty radio stations and eight networks including The Inspiration Network (INSP) and Trinity Broadcasting Network.] The ministries can be seen and heard weekly in 99 million homes. John Hagee Ministries is in Canada on the Miracle Channel and CTS and can be seen in Africa, Europe, Australia, New Zealand and is in most third world nations. He is also the president and CEO of Global Evangelism Television, which telecasts his radio and television ministry.
That is hardly minor.
Year ago Reagan was aked if he was going to return contributions from the Log Cabin Republicans because they were gay. Reagan said no of course not, I'm glad they agree with me enough to contribute to my campaign. Agreement over political issues is one thing but attending a church for 20 years that spews nothing but hatred for people that look like me is another. --JG
You must know that Wright does NOT preach “nothing but hatred” toward whites. And many people (white and black) who belong to his congregation have attested to that. That is an exaggeration, and doesn’t help this discussion.
I saw a picture in the paper today, it was Obama and Wright standing next to each other. I heard one of my co workers ask, what does that have to do with being elected President? I asked them to picture this; Instead of Obama You place John McCain in the picture and instead of Wright you place David Duke there. I then asked them why would that be an issue in the Presidential election? --JG
Jeremiah Wright can hardly be compared with a former Ku Klux Klan member. As far as I know, Wright never belonged to an organization that advocated the annihilation of white people, that burned crosses on white people’s lawns to intimidate them, that was responsible for blowing up little white girls in their churches, and that lynched white people (young white boys, for example, for whistling at black women) and literally got away with murder.
They are not comparable in any way shape or form.
Nothing will ever change the fact that Obama sat in Wright's church, attended meetings, took council from Wright and participated in a congregation that espouses hatred for America and for whites.--JG
As I’ve pointed out, plenty of white evangelicals have listened to some of the same rhetoric and anti-American preaching in their churches, and no one that I am aware of has paid a political price for it. Why the double standard?
Many preachers have called down the wrath of God on America for (it’s called condemning America) for allowing abortions to continue to be lawful. Wright has condemned America for its past sins. Wright is considered abominable, and the white preachers who condemn America?
Obama is unqualified to be a President and I believe he is the most cynical of racists. JG
Okay, you’re opinion is that Obama is unqualified. Fine.
Racist? Are you forgetting that his mother was white and that he spent his formative years with his white grandparents?
Show me factual evidence of his hatred toward whites. What has he perpetrated against any white person that proves he was so influenced by his pastor that he has brought harm upon the white community.
Here's where the so called "rubber meets the road." If you can't or won't give me this very, very important factual evidence of Obama's racism, then all you've said is opinion--and, as the saying goes, you can have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts.
Obama cannot justify his racist behavior…--JG
You have to give us examples of his racist behavior. Sitting in a church and listening to a fire and brimstone preacher who rails against white injustice is not racist behavior anymore than sitting in a movie theater and watching science fiction is scientific behavior.
Behavior is how a person conducts his life and interacts with others. If you can cite me an example of how Obama has injured a white person or the white community because of what you label his “racist” behavior, please do.
and is hiding behind slick words written by a speech writers designed to fool those that want to be fooled.--JG
You are uninformed. Obama writes his own speeches. And he is recognized as one of the best we have seen in generations.
The people that have endorsed Bush or McCain have done so to gain political favor. That's the way that works. Obama's case is much different, the racism and hatred he heard was a way of life for him.--JG
You believe racism is a ‘way of life” for Obama. Words have meaning. You’ve labeled Obama several times here as a racist with NOT ONE EXAMPLE OF IT. NOT ONE.
Listening to what someone preaches and actually committing racial harm to the white community are not the same, as much as you’d like it to be.
You obviously don’t like Obama on many levels, and I’m guessing the first level is that he is a liberal. Fair enough. But please examine how that dislike informs the rest of your opinions.
JG: Even I wouldn't go so far as to call Obama racist. I have questions, and as the pressure mounts, he may be getting closer to politics-as-usual, but he has not done anything that smacks of racism.
Shaw: Don't you just love it when politics clouds reason?
When someone belongs to a racist organization that spews racial hatred and does not disavow those racist teachings until you are caught, in my book you are a racist.
Wright is every bit the racist that David Duke is and Obama never said a word about it to anyone until he was caught. I hope Obama has a good bye speech ready. I was wrong about Obama being vapid, he is nothing but another cynical political opportunist that refuses to honest about his beliefs.
I belong to a Christian organization of over 1.7 million people with thousands of congregations and if any of them preached the hatred that Obama has signed onto in those congregations would have their charters revoked.
The reason everyone is angry now is because the press refused to do it's job of exposing the hatred their little darling has tolerated for the last twenty years. Most whites now see it as the same old same old of some black guy trying to get over and the media covering up for him. There are plenty of honest hardworking blacks that are deserving of a shot at the White House but Obama is not one of them. He's dishonest about his beliefs and is most certainly a racist if he can sit a pew or go to meetings and studies for twenty years and listen to the garbage that is spewed by Wright.
I had a friend that I grew up with that turned out to be a complete racist and belittled blacks at every opportunity at social gatherings and other functions. I finally said to him after listening to him rant that every one was sick of hearing that crap and he should thank blacks that patronized his store and made him a millionaire. I was not popular for that but I never showed up at another event where he was invited. It doesn't matter to me who I offend when it comes to stating my beliefs. This is the first time in my adult life that I believe I am superior intellectually and morally to any of the three candidates left in this race for the Presidency. I consider all three to be contemptuous and unqualified to be president of the United States and from what my co workers have said to me I am not the only one to feel that way either.
I have held the top offices of some very liberal organizations in my life as a conservative and when I stepped down to let someone else take the responsibility I Had hundreds of people asking me stay on and all those peopel that elected me time and time again that are dyed in the wool liberals understood that I am a conservative. That's all I'm going to say about it because that's all anyone needs to know because I am no longer an elected official and I do not intend to run as one again. If I ever did I would stand up a be proud of the people I knew and repeat the things I said and what they said and the things we accomplished and not try to hide behind any parsed words. That's where I come from to say the things I do.
JG,
I don't doubt your honesty.
But again, you have not shown one scrap of evidence to support your claim that Obama is a racist.
I repeat. Sitting in a church and listening to SOMEONE ELSE'S RANTINGS doesn't make Obama a racist. And you go way, way overboard in your condemnation of his pastor. He said intemperate and screwy things, for sure, but that wasn't all he was about. It was more complicated, much more.
You heard that this preacher said SOME anti-American things in his church (as did Wright's counter-parts in white churches), so you discount all the good that the man has done, including serving his country as a Marine and helping lift people in his congregation up and make them take responsibility for their lives. And he has counseled them to do that.
Okay. That's your choice, and I believe it is a choice that is clouded by your hatred of liberals. Until you face that, your analysis of what happened is going to be invalid.
It is incredible that you continue to equate Pastor Wright with David Duke, and that you are so blind that you cannot see that the Ku Klux Klan, of which Duke was a member and leader, was an organization that systematically TERRORIZED and MURDERED black people in this country. And got away with it.
No matter how much you try to conflate Pastor Wright, who has done nothing but preach and has never belonged to an organization that terrorized and murdered white people, with David Duke, it won't work. You'll continue to sound rather goofy, and your arguments will be discounted.
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