The healthcare plan that consistently polls best is single payer, but that plan is either censored or ridiculed by corporate media sources that are financially beholden to the HMOs and insurance companies.
What is a discussion without comments like the one above mentioning a whacky conspiracy theory involving "censorship" and paranoid control theories. But comments like the above would only serve to scare people. The fact is that Obama's plan does not include "single payer".
What was wacky about Libhom's comment? The public option in the current plan being bandied about has been attacked as socialist. Tea Parties, which were arranged and advertised by FOX attacked health insurance reform as "socialist." Libhom is correct on all his points Dmarks. And while Obama's plan is not single payer, it ought to be.
No offense Shaw, but I've never put much faith in polls because they never tell the whole story. I don't care if it's Fox, MSNBC or CNN, there are always so many variables.I don't see the support either in Congress or in the country. I know this isn't any more reliable than polls but just about everyone I know is against the health care plan, liberal or conservative. We shall see!
Obama has a health care plan? Are ya sure? Has anyone seen it? I know of the House version and the Baucus plan in the Senate. Just where can I find this Obama plan?The chart is of course nonsense. If you can dig deeper into it I bet you find that most polled were Democrats. A little slanted don't ya think? And for you that think a single payer plan is just the cat's meow why ain't ya in Canada or Cuba or Britain for their stupendous programs? They travel here for ours I would think you'd put your health on the line and go there!
I recommend you read this article http://hotair.com/archives/2009/09/25/nytcbs-poll-shows-obama-losing-ground-on-health-care-afghanistan/, just a different view of the results.The New York Times and CBS News organizations have long ago traded away any semblance of an investigative news source to become rah rah pom pom pumping lackeys for the Obama regime.
Truth said: "And while Obama's plan is not single payer, it ought to be."At which point Obama's plan would indeed be socialist. The imposition of a government monopoly. It would then match the awful things said about it.
Dear Jim,We Americans don't have to go to Canada or Europe to ask how single-payer plans work.We can ask our veterans, our military on active duty, and our seniors. They all have a single-payer plan and they are quite satisfied with it. "[The VA system is] a huge and vastly important universal healthcare system—government run, single payer and therefore socialist—right here in the brave and privatized United States: The Veterans Affairs hospitals. If you've served in the military, you can go to the VA. If it's within five years of your last active duty service, or you have injuries related to your service, you can go and get healthcare pretty much for free."Source Would Jim or dmarks like to confront a Marine who served his country in combat duty and call him a Cuba-loving socialist because his government runs his health care program? Or grandma? Just wondering...dmarks, Jim and others need to stop beating that poor old "It's Socialism!" horse, since not only does the US government provide health care to a good chunk of its citizens, but our close allies in Europe, as well as Japan and other enlightened countries provide health care to ALL OF THEIR CITIZENS.It's not just Cuba, Jim, that offers universal health care [although Cuba has a better infant mortality rate than the US does--not bad for a third world country, eh?], but the majority of the civilized world.And the poll was conducted by NBC/Wall Street Journal--not the New York Times and NBC.Jim, do you watch FOX News? Listen to Limbaugh, Hannity, or Beck?
I do notice that some rightwingers like to use polls when they see Obama slipping in them, but never, never when someone uses them to show support for the president.And poll taking is much more accurate now that it was, say a decade ago.Mr. Obama remains quite popular [personally] with the American people, even though that makes some on the Right crazy.
Shaw said: "dmarks, Jim and others need to stop beating that poor old "It's Socialism!" horse"When do you see me beat that horse? Not often, that is for sure. Why? Because Obama's plan is not really socialist.However, single payer, in which the single payer is the government, is socialist. Whether or not Japan or Cuba do it. There's nothing wrong with using a word in a situation where it belongs. And I know very well that that situation is NOT the President's healthcare plan.Helen: I was almost going to make the same sort of poll observation. I've seen it go the other way quite often, including here. That is, some lefttwingers like to use polls when they see Obama and his policies high in them, but never when the President's support is slipping.
Shaw: "Would Jim or dmarks like to confront a Marine who served his country in combat duty and call him a Cuba-loving socialist because his government runs his health care program? Or grandma? Just wondering..."The VA is a payment to the soldiers for their service. It is not a handout, a giveaway.
And Medicare is what?
We can ask our veterans, our military on active duty, and our seniors. They all have a single-payer plan and they are quite satisfied with it. - SKAs a 6 year veteran of the submarine forces from 1971 to 1977 I am well aware of the VA system, more so than you. Many examples of both sides of the debate about VA care can be given, as an example my brother-in-law, who was a paratrooper in Vietnam, had to finally go outside the system to private care through his employer to get knee replacements though he had been on the list for the operation for YEARS. I know of WWII veterans that have gotten great care, though they do complain about the overall conditions of the facilities.I, an honorably discharged veteran and eligible for VA care as promised by my government, can't get on the service because I don't have an illness or injury directly related to my service. Why? Because VA care is RATIONED!
And the poll was conducted by NBC/Wall Street Journal--not the New York Times and NBC.Jim, do you watch FOX News? Listen to Limbaugh, Hannity, or Beck?SK, you best go back and look at those charts again. Only the 4 lower charts are NBC/WSJ. Is there something sinister you wish to imply? I am a patriot, lady. I listen and read many view points. Have you read I. Kant? Have you sat with a combat veteran of WW2 and listened to their stories? Have you taken a homeless person to lunch? I do. Yes, I am proud to say I listen to Rush and Hannity and Levin and Church. And FOX is more balanced than the rabid MSNBC. I am amused at socialist/communists in this country. I often wonder why you don't just move to a country where that system is firmly entrenched if you think it is so Utopian. Cuba for instance. After all, Lee Harvey Oswald did.BTW - would the mortality rates of babies for the US change if the abortions were removed from the stats? Just asking.
As a 6 year veteran of the submarine forces from 1971 to 1977 I am well aware of the VA system, more so than you.--JimAll the men in my family served in America's armed forces. And all of them have benefited from the VA. One of them is a post-WWII Army vet, who served as an MP in the occupying forces in Germany, another is a Viet Nam vet who is permanently disabled. Both of them receive care when they need it. Their experiences do not match yours. I can find as many veterans who are quite happy with their care as you can find people who are not.SK, you best go back and look at those charts again. Only the 4 lower charts are NBC/WSJ.--JimI apologize. I did not see the upper charts' designation. But it is YOUR opinion that the New York Times and CBS cannot impartial in taking polls, not a fact.Is there something sinister you wish to imply? I am a patriot, lady.So am I, mister. The Right has no special claim on patriotism, Sir. I'm just as much of an American as you; and while I salute your service to our country, I do not cede to anyone any sort of superior citizenship they may believe they own because of military service. I am not a second-class citizen because I did not serve in the military.Yes, I am proud to say I listen to Rush and Hannity and Levin and Church. And FOX is more balanced than the rabid MSNBC.--JimI already knew that.I am amused at socialist/communists in this country. I often wonder why you don't just move to a country where that system is firmly entrenched if you think it is so Utopian. Cuba for instance. After all, Lee Harvey Oswald did.--JimThat you label me as a socialist/communist is symptomatic of the supercilious and destructive attitude that you and others of your kind exhibit toward Americans who differ with your philosophies.We live in a big country. While you cherish your ideas and philosophies, it may surprise you to learn that we on the Left cherish ours as well. You are not more American for holding those ideas. And neither is any other American. Demonizing the opposition as followers of murderous cults makes your arguments laughable.Name-calling and catogorizing people as Commies and Socialists is symptomatic of weak ideas and, worse, fears that you may not have all the answers.You've given away a lot about yourself in that last quoted paragraph.PS. I don't continue discussions with people who fling terms like "Communist/Socialist" at people they know nothing about.
Shaw: To answer your question, there are some forms of socialism I find acceptible. Such as a welfare safety net for the needy, indigent, poor, and disabled.I feel that this safety-net should be means tested. I don't feel that there is any pressing need to expand these safety nets to the well-off and rich. This is the major reason I opposed renewing SCHIP without major changes. That program, designed originally for and still marketed for underpriviliged children, now gives money to rich adults. People who can otherwise pay for their healthcare. I just don't find it necessary for the government to tax us all to provide free health care for the rich. I would probably support versions of these health care reform bills that only gave health free health care to needy, indigent, poor, and disabled.
Name calling is just as much a part of the leftist agenda as are give aways to those that haven't earned them.I'm a patriot in that I believe in the original founding of the Constitution. Others, as you, would void that document. Your actions point in that direction.Kuddos to your family for serving these United States in uniform. I do not mean to imply second class citizenship to those that haven't. That decision is a personal choice. Not everyone should serve in uniform. Take care. It has been a pleasure.
Name calling is just as much a part of the leftist agenda as are give aways to those that haven't earned them.--JimYou came to my blog and implied that I am a Communist/Socialist. What you did was personal and directed at me. Do not use the nebulous excuse that the left calls people names. I did not engage in that. You did. I am not personally responsible for what others on the Left do or say. Perhaps that's a point too difficult for your to understand?I'm a patriot in that I believe in the original founding of the Constitution.--JimReally? The "original founding of the Constitution" allowed slavery, allowed suffrage to only white men who owned property and denied women the right to vote. Others, as you, would void that document. Your actions point in that direction.--JimJim, you're not a serious person. For you to come here and state that I would "void" the Constitution shows me and others that you care more about ideology and smearing people on the Left, rather than facts and the discussion of ideas.You cannot name ONE ACTION from me that "points in that direction," nor any statement on my blog that does so.I tried to engage you, but you're interested only in Limbaughizing me--that is smearing and libeling me with absolutely no facts or evidence to back those libels.
Oh no! Say it ain't so Jim. Gone. Gone. Gone. In my experience a great many folks who call themselves 'patriot' or 'Christian' or 'real American' do so because the label is crucial. You'd never be able to tell from their actions. Adios Jim.
Libel? Get serious.Point out to me then where in the enumerated powers health care is a right, or any other social program put forth by the "national" government. Those decisions ought and should be the rights of the States to decide. The Constitution was written at a time when slavery was allowed, that is so, however it does not mean I want that now or ever. The document can be amended and there is a process to do that very thing. The courts had no power to do it from the bench.I am trying to do what to you? Silly statement on your part. BTW - Rush did not serve in uniform either so I guess I should look upon him as a second class citizen? My opinions have been garnered over several decades of life and study and Rush only supports them and gives them a voice.I am sorry you are offended. I was attacked personally as well and since this is your blog I assumed you had agreed with the offense. My mistake.
Why is everyone else so quiet? ;-)
Sorry Jim. I was on the phone with my cousins in New York all day. They were staking out hospitals and clinics for Canadians wanting to utilize our health care system. They're still waiting for one.
Truth: Send them to the Vancouver area. I have a Canadian friend who has to do that.
Sorry Jim. I made the error of believing you when you said goodbye. My mistake.
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