Monday, April 14, 2014
Gods, Guns and Hitler by Capt. Fogg of The Swash Zone
"I have certain misgivings about hate crime laws, but we're reminded this morning -- the eve of Pesach or The Passover, and a week before Hitler's birthday, that people who belong to hate-based organizations and creeds, who post virulent hate messages and calls for extermination on-line, need their constitutional right to keep and bear arms infringed.
I feel quite protective of our guaranteed right to free speech and our right to think what we think, but speech that incites to violence, that creates a mortal danger to the public, is something else and that's been established for a long time. Frazier Glenn Miller is a founding member of the Carolina Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and the White Patriot Party. That's not a crime, more's the pity, nor is shouting "Heil Hitler" from the back of a police car, but perhaps we ought to consider making it a felony to belong to groups who advocate murder because as far as I know, it's illegal for felons to own firearms.
I know -- penalties and restrictions don't prevent criminals and especially psychopathic criminals from committing crimes, but there's something wrong with Mr. Miller or Mr. Cross as he often calls himself, to own weapons. There's something wrong if the targets of hate groups need to arm themselves or to hire armed guards or to go about in fear because we elevate and protect a right to be armed above the right to remain alive. We shouldn't have to wait for people like that to run amok before we do anything. Threatening violence against groups or individuals should be sufficient to disarm someone.
Lest one think that being a white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant is protection and a reason not to worry, Methodists were shot in this tragedy as well." --Capt. Fogg
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21 comments:
Making "terroristic threats" is a crime, as far as I know and at least in some states, but it seems like the threats have to be rather specific and credible.
From some personal experience it seems pretty hard to make charges -- even specific threats stick.
Last night, I was sickened by first accounts of the shooting - knowing instinctively that this was a hate crime while the authorities were still withholding motive and judgment.
Only in America do we place the precious right of free speech so high on a pedestal that we tolerate this crap. Most countries in Europe outlawed this stuff after WWII, outlawed anti-Semitism, outlawed Holocaust denial, outlawed violent fringe groups, outlawed racist hate speech.
In contrast, America is still the Wild West because the lunatic fringe covets their lunacy as much as they covet their guns. When we write and comment about such lunacy in our online forums, we receive the opprobrium of right-wingers who accuse us of “political correctness” - of acting as the “thought police.” Well, goddamnit, sometimes you need political correctness to condemn the madness within our midst.
Here is a word to some of our conservative so-called friends. The next time anyone calls me a “libtard” for my beliefs or my words of conscience or my partisan affiliation, and accuses me of political correctness, be forewarned: I no longer need a fucking dictionary to stand my ground!
Anti-Semitism doesn't make any sense to me. If you're basing your hate on something from the Bible, how can you hate so much that you want to kill people who share a common religious heritage and still consider yourself a Christian? Both are Abrahamic religions and of the major world religions, Christianity and Judaism are the most similar. Jesus was a Jew. But apparently the killer hated Jews more than African Americans. I mean, if you're going to hate someone because they look different that you that's stupid, but it's an understandable stupid. But Jewish people are usually White. Maybe I'm just not that informed on this issue and making myself look dumb by saying this, but I really don't get anti-Semitism.
Antisemitism is at it's pear in the US and it is not just rabid skin heads. It is difficult to define a political party this faction represents but it could dbe defined a fringe.
Legs, Why is it that that conservatives are the responsible party in all things evil. Fiscal conservatives belong to neither party because neither party represents fiscal conservatism.
An hour ago, I left this comment at RN's place but thought it might also be appropriate to share it here:
------------
Will: “these folks are the bottom of the barrel.”
Just because Will says it, does this mean his ad hominem characterizations are true? This is how Will treats all folks who hold an opinion different than his:
“leftist morons”
“you uneducated buffoon”
“ignoramus leftist stooge”
“bottom of the barrel”
See, here is a problem with blanket stereotypes: Just because it may apply to one or a handful of people, are these characterizations true of every member of the same group?
Another term is “unintended by-catch,” a term used among fisherman who cast an overly wide net and catch air-breathing marine mammals in addition to edible fish. Are all liberals, or all conservatives, “bottom of the barrel? Or only liberals just because they hold a different opinion?
In my neighborhood, there are people of all persuasions. There are liberals and conservatives, alike, who pay their taxes, pay their bills, do their civic duty, and help their neighbors – regardless of political persuasion and with no preconditions.
Speaking for myself, I raised one daughter who chose a career in the U.S. Army. A Lieutenant Colonel to be exact, a recipient of TWO Bronze Stars and SEVEN distinguished Service Citations who deploys next week to Afghanistan. Like me, she is liberal and progressive and votes accordingly. Does this mean Lieutenant Colonel Daughter is “bottom of the barrel,” according to Will-the-Shrill who takes no prisoners and tolerates no opinion other than his own?
You see, Will, there really are racists and anti-Semites in this world. Yesterday, for instance, THIS MAN thought he was targeting Jews but killed two Methodists instead.
Oops. Unintended by-catch!
This character claims the Jews were wiping out the white race:
So, he goes to a Jewish center and kills two Methodists and a Catholic, inadvertently doing his
in 'wiping out the white race'.
Tracked by the Southern Poverty Law Center for most of his 'career', he should have been
exiled (preferably to Israel) rather than be allowed free to
preach and simmer.
Scud: ?Legs, Why is it that that [sic] conservatives are the responsible party in all things evil.”
Sometimes, scud, I really wonder if you know anything about the English language inasmuch as you misread what people say … and reply with fractured sentences, grammatical errors, and misspellings.
What I said: “The next time anyone calls me a “libtard” for my beliefs or my words of conscience or my partisan affiliation, and accuses me of political correctness, be forewarned …”
You have trolled this place long enough to know that Shaw and other readers of this forum, including me, have often been called “libtards” and “libturds” among other examples of opprobrium and sneer and jeer that sneak through comment moderation including, but by no means limited to:
“Dictators, socialists, communists, Marxists, Fabian, power-hungry”
“threadbare, smelly and ready to be cast onto the scrap heap”
Let me remind you: This is a liberal/progressive forum, and the verbal abuse heaped upon us always comes from right wing extremists … your side of the political spectrum.
You have never engaged this forum in meaningful debate. All too often, you have been disrespectful and insensitive … with off topic taunts, non sequiturs, deliberate mischaracterizations, and a well-practiced dimwittedness meant to annoy us.
Speaking of off-topic, this post is NOT ABOUT YOU - or your concerns. It’s about an anti-Semitic hate crime that affects me deeply in the most personal terms. If you refuse to understand this and continue to offend me, then you don’t have to come here anymore.
Skud... you ask a valid question, one that I have been thinking on most of the day with the recent killings fresh in my mind.
Why is it that conservatives are the responsible party in all things evil.
First, according to many of your friends at self identified sites, it is us libs, libturds, idiots, socialists and commies that are responsible for all things evil.
I am sure you've seen the comments.
But to answer your question directly, let me try this... a guy shoots up a jewish center because he hates Jews, even yelling praises to hitler as he is led away.
Which party do you think he votes for? As he has also been a White Supremacist, I'm guessing it is not the liberal side of the ledger.
When people spout off with racial digs at our president and other politicians, which party do they tend to favor at the ballot box?
If you guessed the GOP, you win the chicken dinner.
Unless and until people see conservative leaders, and bloggers, who drive the conservative base, step up and call these racist people out, sadly, reasonable conservatives will continue to suffer.
But this is not the fault of the liberals. Conservatives have long maintained that failure to police the more radical movements of a group is essentially agreement and it is fair to lump everyone together when that happens.
Conservatives want it different? Step up and demand change from the radical base of the GOP/Conservative party...
Step up and demand change? While I agree with you Dave it is pointless to do so with the ultra conservative libertarian base.controlling the party.
Your points do ring true Dave. Which is why I no longer associate with any party.
It restricts freedom of thought and is not good for ones health.
This most recent senseless murder of thee souls is truly sickening and Capt. does a good job of putting it in perspective.
Many value, indeed demand exercise of their 1'st and 2'nd amendment rights. Most respect that others have the same rights and do not threaten, incite, or commit acts of violence. For those who do, I agree with the Capt.
Thank you, Dave.
Skud, here's your chance to put up... My comments here responding to your question have been copied and pasted on a site i know you read to look like I posted "your" question
Which of course also means is that I will now be as someone calling conservatives evil, when I just quoted your question.
You want conservatives treated better? Go own up to that question being yours. I never implied conservatives being the source if all evil as that reposting and editing of my comments implies.
Dave, I've seen this sort of dishonesty on those blogs many times. I'm afraid certain commenters only half read what is posted here and then they go running to those blogs to report on what meanies we liberals are.
I'm not surprised that the commenter would lie about what you wrote. They do the same to me as well.
I have no idea why they behave in such a dishonest manner. And yes, skudrunner should man up and tell them they've misrepresented your comment here.
At this point I don't know how much of their shenanigans are attributed to sloppy reading or deliberate malice.
Not in MY name is deliberately spreading lies about Dave Miller. He did NOT write
"Why is it that conservatives are the responsible party in all things evil."
skudrunner wrote that on this thread:
"skudrunner said...
Antisemitism is at it's pear in the US and it is not just rabid skin heads. It is difficult to define a political party this faction represents but it could dbe defined a fringe.
Legs, Why is it that that conservatives are the responsible party in all things evil. Fiscal conservatives belong to neither party because neither party represents fiscal conservatism."
It's one thing to disagree with what a commenter says, but it is an entirely different thing to deliberately lie about that commenter and spread that lie to other blogs.
Shame on Not in MY Name for doing that to Dave Miller, and to the intellectually lazy people who repeat "Not in MY Name's" vicious lies and to those who allow these liars on their blogs.
If scud had put a proper question mark at the end of his interrogatory, he might have sparred Dave - and everyone else - the infamy of misattribution.
Shaw, you've had blogger Free Thinke comment here. Are you aware of this?:
Frazier Glenn Miller:
"The two extremely ugly kikes, one fat one skinny, did not deny one single charge I made against the jews. Their several questions were incredibly stupid, really. They did remain defiant with frowns the whole time, though. Noses stuck up in the air as if to dare me to do something about jewish attrocities.
Some subjects: The holyhoax, black crime, Federal Reserve, WWII, jewish leadership of the bolshevik revolution which the profession knew and admitted, god’s chosen people, white birth rates and the jewish genocide against us, jewish control of government, media, and FR, Henry Ford and his book (incredibly the professor had a copy on hand), books Jewish Supremacism and They Dare to Speak Out (left two copies of The Aryan Alternative and a copy of my own book, for students to pass around), and other subjects.
Free Thinke:
"Yes, indeed! But they he failed to mention the nearly absolute control Jews exert upon A) the ENEMEDIA, B) the Entertainment Industry, and C) the Educational Establishment, and the hugely disproportionate influence Jews enjoy over The Courts, The Law in general, and their ever-growing numbers in the U.S. Congress. (Schumer, Boxer, Feinstein, Franken, Sanders, et al.)
What is the difference between the antisemitic filth Frazier Glenn Miller championed and the blogger Free Thinke spreads around the internet?
A word to the wise...
One and the same sort of antisemitism. It's right there for all to read.
Dave,
I take ownership for what I post but have no idea nor take responsibility for what was copied to another site, I haven't seen it.
There are extremes on both sides but with the MSM being way to the left, it is the extreme right who gets the bad press.
David,
If you do some looking you will see the shooter ran for political office as a democrat and as a republican. Seems like he couldn't make up his mind.
Both parties have their extremes. The republicans has the Tea Party and the democrats have the Progressives.
Oh yeah. Right. The Progressives are running around screaming about birth certificates, death panels, and the Kenyan Commie Fascist America Hater! Yeah. Right. Both sides "do it."
NOT!
DAMMIT SCUD, GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!
In 2006, Frazier Glenn Miller (the accused) tried to run as the Democratic candidate against Representative Roy Blunt (R-Mo, District 7). The Democratic Party REFUSED his application and RETURNED his $100 filing fee.
"The Democratic Party is certainly a big-tent party, but that does not include white supremacists," said Democratic spokesperson Jack Cardetti.
In response, Miller filed a Federal lawsuit to secure a position on the party ballot. The lawsuit was dismissed. Subsequently, Miller ran as an independent write-in candidate receiving 23 votes.
Ten years earlier (1986), Miller ran as a Republican in the North Carolina GOP Senate primary. As a Republican, Miller received 6,662 votes. Two years prior, Miller ran as a Dixiecrat in another North Carolina primary.
Thus, refused a place on the ticket by Missouri Democrats but accepted by North Carolina Republicans, Miller was far more popular running as a Republican – by a ratio of 6,662 to 23.
And don’t forget: All Dixiecrats (formerly the racists, segregationists, and white supremacists of the Democratic Party) fled to the Republicans during the 80s.
Scud, you will never get away with spinning this to your advantage. Now get lost! I’m done with you.
TTSSYF:
“My contempt for the thinking of leftists knows no bounds” (Colonel Klinke).
Since we are on the subject of hate crime and the recent murders in Kansas (with all victims mistakenly targeted because the murderer thought they were Jewish), perhaps it is time for a more open and honest discussion, or to put it more bluntly:
TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION
Sometimes I visit extreme far right wing weblogs - not to comment or to engage in conversation – but to read the ‘lunacy de jour.’
What pleasure progressives find in talking to The Fringe is frankly beyond me. Perhaps some are motivated by a well intentioned - but seriously misguided – attempt at outreach. Perhaps others get an adrenaline buzz consorting Orcs and Goblins as interactive entertainment? As for me, I learned long ago to LOOK and then LEAVE and never engage them in conversation. Consider it a form of intelligence gathering.
I have also observed how The Fringe has treated readers of this forum with verbal abuse and the usual litany of slurs. Not just Liberals. Our Libertarian friends have also been assailed for posting what I thought were reasonable comments. Moderate Republicans are considered RINOs. My point: The Fringe is not a partisan group. It is a rage group – dissembling, dismissing, denying, and disabusing you of anything you say. These people are no more civil or reasonable than the KKK, Aryan Nations, or the Bader Meinhof Gang.
The comment you cited is no longer there for all to read. Since the murders in Kansas on Sunday, Colonel Klinke expunged his anti-Semitic harangues posted on his blog. He has covered up the evidence of hate speech and put himself back in the closet … for now. That is how dishonest and deceitful he is.
well, Octo, it's like Oscar Wilde said, "It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious."
Little Skud says falls into the Charming category. And I am sure that, at one time or another, his mother thought him a good boy.
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