The fact is that blame goes back to G.W. Bush and continued through successive administrations. We remained this long because everyone understood an exit would be at least as messy as what happened, and they were unwilling to take the political hit.
Also, it is long past time for Congress to take its share of responsibility for committing the country to war. They have been too cowardly to acknowledge responsibility and more than willing to cede responsibility to the executive. That enables them to claim credit when things go well and blame the president when things go wrong.
We are seeing that cynical attitude in action now.
Yes, the withdrawal should have been managed better, but it is not clear how much better it could have been. Partly, the US was caught in a long existing pretension about the strength of the Afghan government and military. It was a house of cards, that was bound to collapse once the props were gone.
In my opinion, the Afghan tragedy may be President Biden's responsibility for the chaotic evacuation, but not necessarily his fault.
33 comments:
Agree we should never have been there and that is on Bush, Obama and Trump but mainly on Bush for getting us in there in the first place. Our "intelligence" was not very intelligent because we were not invading a country but a culture that we did not understand.
It is sad that we lost a lot of soldiers and are back where we were 20 years ago. We left behind millions of people who now have to pay the price for our failure. There are thousands of children who have never known peace and never lived under taliban rule. Women will now be relegated to second class citizens with no control over their own lives. Now we have given the taliban a country that is well armed to do whatever they want.
Could we have executed the withdrawal better, I think everyone agrees we could. We have a professional military yet we allow politicians to make decisions for which they are not qualified and incompetent to make. Pull out troops first then people and leave billions of dollars in high tech weapons behind is just stupid. It is convenient to say trump would have been worse but we will never know.
Jim Wright:
"So, if I'm understanding this correctly: America should have "got out" of Afghanistan like Trump campaigned on and Republicans have been demanding (and also, in fairness, Joe Biden too), but -- BUT! -- America should ALSO have, somehow, maintained control of the country even after we left and essentially continued, again somehow, to keep the Taliban in check, the very SAME Taliban who the Trump Administration via Mike Pompeo negotiated a deal with in Qatar and then Donald Trump himself invited to Camp David on the 2019 anniversary of 911 but later rescinded the invite when the secret meeting become public but STILL made a deal with that same Taliban ANYWAY behind the backs of Americans and the very allied Afghan government and Afghan citizens the Taliban is targeting right now and Americans are all screaming about how we gotta get our friends out but also we don't want them HERE because they are our allies, sure, but also somehow terrorists because basically we spent 20 years, thousands of lives, and trillions of dollars to take Afghanistan away from the Taliban and then ... give it right back to the very same Taliban and anyway even though Republicans and Democrats all hate each other the one thing they and the news media can all agree on is that this is all somehow Joe Biden's fault."
I'll rank the responsibility/blame as follows:
1. Bush—Who got us in the war.
2. Obama—Who didn't get us out of the war.
3. Trump—Who forced Biden's hand to get us out of the war.
4. Biden—Who got us out of the war.
Well, it was messy.
Could the tragic loss of American soldiers have been prevented? That's a big maybe. Even leaving 20K soldiers at the airport to provide security, at some point, since the Afghan Army basically cut and ran, we would've needed security at entrance gates and concentric circles of fencing. That security would have been US soldiers.
And they would have been at huge risk.
Think of it like this...
The crowds of people trying to get into the Afghanistan airport were like people at a busy US airport waiting in a security line. And in that crowd of ppl waiting was at least one person with a bomb vest under his clothes. Once he got close to where US soldiers were vetting people, the point of maximum contact and risk, he detonated his bomb. And then his terrorist friends opened fire with machine guns.
Imagine all of that happening at your local airport screening gate. How on earth do you protect against that? Do you put US soldiers in the crowd, completely outmanned?
At some point, there has to be the first point of entry for people, including American citizens and Afghans who spent their lives helping us, to get in. And it was that point where we were attacked.
At the end of the day, the US Military conducted the largest airlift in history, got almost all of the Americans out and in reality, suffered few casualties. I wish we were able to say we got all the Americans out. The President said we would, I hope he keeps his word.
This happened on President Biden's watch. As it is with any president, if it happens on your watch, you get the blame or the praise.
At the very least, Joe Biden acted like a president when he said [paraphrase], I am the President and this happened on my watch, it is my responsibility.
Can anyone here imagine President Trump making anything close to that statement or accepting any responsibility for an action he ordered that did not go exactly as planned?
Doubtful.
As we consider responses from US quarters on the ending of this war and the loss of soldiers in a terrorist suicide bombing, it might be useful to look back at a previous episode.
In August of 1983 a truck bomber penetrated the US Embassy in Lebanon, killing 17 Americans and numerous Lebanese. The terrorists then, as was the case with the Isis X terrorists, wanted us out of Lebanon.
President Reagan stood firm and one part of the result was that we lost US Marines to anti US snipers.
Then in October of 1983, another truck bomber drove into the US Marine base, killing 241 US Marines and service personnel. It was the worst loss of life for the marines since Iwo Jima.
Again, President Reagan stood firm, refusing to withdraw our soldiers until February of 1984, an election year.
Bi-partisan commissions found huge fault on the part of the Marines and ultimately the Reagan Admin for not preparing the Marine base for a similar attack to what had already happened to our Embassy in Lebanon.
I think it is interesting to think about and consider why the response from the great majority of political leaders and parties is so different from today. There were no calls for his impeachment, in spite of over 250 dead Americans as a direct result of his policies. In spite of the fact that the Dems controlled the House of Representatives then. There was no US military response to those who coordinated the attack on our forces.
In fact, Pres Reagan was reelected by a large margin the following year.
We should ask why and what is different today.
The British tried 3 times and failed to win in Afghanistan.
The Russians tried one time and after 10 years gave up.
Why did we think we could do any better?
After 20 years, we finally gave up.
We did not learn our lesson after Vietnam. Will we learn after Afghanistan? Or will our next one last 30 years?
Dave "I think it is interesting to think about and consider why the response from the great majority of political leaders and parties is so different from today. There were no calls for his impeachment, in spite of over 250 dead Americans as a direct result of his policies. In spite of the fact that the Dems controlled the House of Representatives then. There was no US military response to those who coordinated the attack on our forces."
Dave, it was a different political world then. And I don't think we'll ever be like that again. I read today that one of the least qualified and newest crazy member of Congress, Republican Boebert, is calling for President Biden's impeachment. Other Trumpublicans are calling for President Biden to resign. None of that happened when the Reagan administration lost all those Marines. Different time; dumber people. Also, remember this:
President Trump caught cracking joke about terrorists while discussing Niger ambush where four U.S. soldiers died
What's happened with the Trumpublicans is all political theater and nothing else, since history shows that the people screaming for President Biden's resignation and impeachment said nothing when Trump made fun of the American soldiers who were ambushed in Niger. And those same people remained silent when we learned that Trump called those who served in WWII and dies "Losers and Suckers."
President Biden will ride this hysteria out and he'll be fine.
Jerry, Skudrunner, Howard
Could we have done better? Well, we had 20 friggin' years to do so, and we didn't do better, so my opinion is that there wasn't much that we could have done, considering how tribal, corrupt, and difficult that country can be.
My nephew, an army ranger, was there as an interpreter (he speaks several Pashtun dialects, and he said long ago there would be no graceful or satisfactory way out for us or the Afghans. He was correct.
"ALSO; what do you guys think of how many millions in American cash the president of Afgh took out of country with him…not long after a mtg with WH people?
Pay off? Z’s being stupid?"
Erm. Yes.
This nation, its politicians in both parties, the media, and even religious organizations ALL share responsibility for NOT having done nearly enough to end the Afganistan mistake at least 19 years ago. But I guess getting out was never really our government's intent. I mean really. Until Trump finally signd an agreement to withdraw with the Taliban before he left office. One of the few good decisions he made while in office I might add.
Anyway, brace yourselves for the next millitary excursion into another sovereign land. It will happen soon. The MIC (Military Industrial Complex) and the war mongering politicians are likely already chomping at the bit to locate the next crisis to make worse. After all, WW II is the last war the USA actually won decisively and as a result change the trajectory of history in that moment. It was a just conflict. America ain't really one one since and likely never will again.
We fight wars for the military industrial complex so it can enrich these top ten defense contractors:
1. Lockheed Martin Corp.
2. Raytheon Technologies Corp.
3. General Dynamics Corp.
4. Boeing Co.
5. Northrop Grumman Corp.
6. Analytic Services Inc.
7. Huntington Ingalls Industries Inc.
8. Humana Inc.
9, BAE Systems
10. L3Harris Technologies Inc.
The majority of the soldiers who were killed in Afghanistan last week were in their 20s.
Rich old men send young men to die for their profits.
We went into Afghanistan because that's where the 9/11 terrorists were. We bombed the hell out of them and hunted them down (mostly). We should have left right after that.
Yes Mike, you are correct.
But both RN and Herd also make good points about the ever growing military industrial complex. What is missing is this...
Every single state in the Union receives federal dollars for either military installations or defense contractors. Those dollars, especially in cash strapped states are a powerful incentive to make sure we continue to send $$$ from Washington.
Congress and their powerful enablers in the MIC strategically worked for decades to implant bases and factories in most of the congressional districts in the nation. To make sure we continue to spend money!
Never fear... soon we will find another location to bomb, invade, advise, prop up or any other euphemism you can imagine to send troops into harm's way. And I would argue that whatever country needs our "help", it will be one with significant oil resources.
We're not too bright Jerry. Regardless what some might believe.
Like I said Mike we ain't too bright. Our selfish interests always get in the way. ALWAYS.
By the way, President Biden was
the only sitting President with the cajones to finally do the right thing. THE ONLY ONE. PERIOD.
My hats off to him with a deep sense of gratitude.
"The tragedy of Afghanistan" isn't an American tragedy. It is emphatically a tragedy for the people of that country. We should stop the self-pity and emphatically stop the blame game.
Yes there have been individual American tragedies - the lives lost or irreversibly altered; but our part in the drama was to create and perpetuate the real tragedy. We were more Iago than Othello, and we'd best not forget that.
RN, The buck stops with him but and it was his decision to withdraw. Then he blames trump for his agreement with the taliban even though biden was president since January and could have altered the agreement. Them he blamed the afgan president, afgan military, afgan citizens and now he is blaming the American citizens still there because they didn't call uber soon enough to get to the airport.
This will not last long because the DNC media is already giving cover so all he has to do is stay on the couch and for gods sake don't take any unscripted questions. After reading his speech just turn around and walk out.
RN... even Ann Coulter, no fan of the Dems, made that exact point. Look, Trump said he'd get the troops out. He had four years and didn't make it happen. Just as Obama had eight years and didn't make it happen.
Biden made it happen in a matter of months. No extra surge, no more stalling, no more bluffing. He said enough is enough. And while it was not perfect, our troops are home.
Period. End of story.
Now, it looks like there are some Americans still "trapped" in Afghanistan. Since March, the Admin has been telling people to get out. Asking if they needed help or financial assistance, etc.
As one who works in another country, where drug violence rages, among other calamities, I know that when I am in Mexico, it's on me. I don't expect the US government to come to my rescue and as unpolitically correct as it may be, those left in Afghanistan, should have left earlier.
What were they waiting for?
Did they believe Biden, like the presidents before him, would renege on his promise to leave the country? Probably so.
They are now there through their own choices. It's on them.
There are reports of more than 25 students from California "trapped" in Afghanistan.
Is it wrong to ask why they were there on a district sponsored trip? I understand there is a large population pf Afghans in that school district. But who sends their kids into a war zone?
Why did they go? Did they have an evac plan? Did they go with hostage, medical or trip interruption insurance?
I think all of these are fair questions to ask.
Dave
Here is the news (8/31) about the families stranded in Afghanistan:
"1 El Cajon Family Remains Stranded in Afghanistan: Cajon Valley Union School District
The families from El Cajon in east San Diego County had been visiting extended family in Afghanistan over the summer when the Taliban moved in on Kabul.
The families had traveled separately to the country to visit extended family over the summer break but got stuck during the chaos of the Taliban's takeover of Kabul
One of the San Diego-area families stranded in Afghanistan – which includes three students who go to school in El Cajon – was not able to make it out of the country as U.S. troops finished their withdrawal." --NBC News San Diego
skudrunner: "Then he blames trump for his agreement with the taliban even though biden was president since January and could have altered the agreement."
Can you explain to us how you know President Biden could have "altered the agreement?" In what way could he have forced the Taliban to re-negotiate the terms of Trump's agreement.
Since you make that statement, I assume you have inside information on how that would have worked out. That would also mean you know the DETAILS of Trump's pre-negotiated terms with the Taliban. So, let's hear that knowledge and how you got access to it.
Here's what I found:
"Renegotiating [the terms], though, would have been difficult. Biden would have had little leverage. He, like Trump, wanted U.S. troops out of Afghanistan. Pulling out of the agreement might have forced him to send thousands more back in.
The Taliban takeover, far swifter than officials from either administration had envisioned, has prompted questions from even some Trump-era officials about whether the terms and conditions of the deal — and the decisions that followed after — did enough to protect Afghanistan once the U.S. military pulled out.
The historic deal was always high-wire diplomacy, requiring a degree of trust in the Taliban as a potential peace partner and inked despite skepticism from war-weary Afghans who feared losing authority in any power-sharing agreement.
“The Doha agreement was a very weak agreement, and the U.S. should have gained more concessions from the Taliban,” said Lisa Curtis, an Afghanistan expert who served during the Trump administration as the National Security Council’s senior director for South and Central Asia.
She called it “wishful thinking” to believe that the Taliban might be interested in lasting peace. The resulting agreement, she said, was heavily weighted toward the Taliban, contributed to undermining Afghan President Ashraf Ghani — he fled the country Sunday and is now in the United Arab Emirates — and facilitated the release of 5,000 Taliban prisoners without a commensurate concession from the Taliban."
SOURCE
The Americans who were in Afghanistan were visiting their extended Afghan families, and it was THEIR responsibility to leave the country. See Dave's comment to get an understanding of what Republicans used to call "personal responsibility."
Shaw... the kids I referenced are from the Sacramento area. El Cajon, in the San Diego area is another whole issue.
BTW Shaw... regarding the agreement with the Taliban.
I think the Constitution gives wide latitude in foreign policy to the president and since the Trump agreement was not a treaty, could have been thrown in the trash by Biden.
It's not like the US has never abrogated a treaty or agreement in the past with another country or people group.
But perhaps Pres Biden felt 1. It was important for him to honor his campaign pledge and 2. For the US as a country to do the best we could to live up to our agreement.
Kid37 ON THE MOTHER SHIP: "The vermin that actually did vote for biden in November would happily vote for him again tomorrow, let alone 3 years from now when all of this evil will be completely forgotten by them.
This is where we are at."
Just a note to remind people that the Nazis called the Jews "vermin" as well as the other groups they exterminated. This commenter has also called Muslims "vermin," and now the folks who voted for Biden are "vermin."
In the past, the opposing political parties were called "the loyal opposition," now this Conservative/Republican/Christian calls anyone who voted for Biden "vermin."
It's easy to exterminate those who you don't like when you dehumanize them and call them "vermin."
We'd better hope the likes of Kid37 never gain control of the government because people like him would exterminate anyone NOT like him.
THIS IS WHERE WE'RE AT.
Afghanistan was a blunder and a tragedy from the very start, much like Vietnam was as was Iraq. In Vietnam we battled an ideology and in Iraq and Afghanistan we battled religion, and even more entrenched foe than is ideology. There is blame to go around, for certain, though Biden promised to get us out of Afghanistan and he kept his promise, even if the exit was a mess. I don't think and other president could've done better.
I feel terrible for those left behind and I fervently hope for their escape and rescue. Seems every time we have one of our wars, we leave behind some of the very people who made our mission possible. I remember watching parents lifting their babies towards American helicopters as the flew out of Vietnam, and I remember shedding a tear for them. I shed those same burning tears for the Afghans desperate to save their families as they lifted their baby over the wall.
Humanity, while a potentially beautiful spiraling ray of hope, is at the same time, an overly aggressive slithering cauldron of rancor and hatred.
Ms. Shaw, thank you for thinking of me. It's true that my health continues to decline and I spend most of my time now under the care of hospice nurse who are, for the most part, very kind. I manage to get on the computer as often as possible and i'm quickly running through all that Hulu and netflix have to offer. :}
I greatly enjoy your blog and will continue to visit as often as I can. You're a charming lady and nobody holds a candle to your intelligence. Keep up the great work. I'm not alone in telling you that we value you very much.
Shoshona Ma Quah which, in my native tongue means from my heart to yours and is used for good friends and family. I offer it to you, Ms. Shaw and to my friends on here. Yes Skidmark, that means you too. :)
Don't forget the other sailors on the HMS Mothership who call people Moslem Vermin...
And got downright crazy when HRC called them deplorables...
THIS IS WHERE WE ARE AT.
And we've not hit bottom yet!
Ms. Shaw, Biden had no problem reversing the paris climate fraud, WHO, Border wall firing thousands of very good paying union jobs at the pipeline so why couldn't he have renegotiated the withdrawal or say it is now delayed.
No one that I have seen post that we should have stayed in Afghanistan and getting out is not the issue. It is when biden asked the president of Afghanistan to lie about the teliban strength and to make stupid, or have his handlers make stupid decisions on how to withdraw.
This incident will pass quickly because christie como is already diverting the subject to trump. Of course anyone who believes anything he says is not very bright but the media is providing cover for poor joe so it will be short lived and turned into a brilliant withdrawal.
Dearest Bluebullamerica
I'm glad to hear from you, but concerned with your news. Please keep in touch, if not through this blog, at least through my email attached to it shawkenaw@yahoo.com.
I don't like to talk about my personal health issues on this public blog because of the trolls who come here every day and would take joy in what I've gone through. But I want to share with you my battles with cancers (yes, cancerS); and how I've looked that bastard in the eye and, and with the help of the geniuses at Massachusetts General Hospital, I'm still here. And cancer free.
I'd also like to email you a photo of my first sculpture (I worked in stone, wood, bronze, and clay) and was a past president of the New England Sculptors Association as well as a Copley Artist (The Copley Art Association is the first art association in America located here in Boston). The first piece I carved in stone is of a Native American woman, (which was displayed at the DeCordova Museum in Lincoln, Mass.) and I've made several pieces of other Native Americans that are in private collections in Italy and France. In the 1970s I read "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee," which history stayed with me the rest of my life.
Your words to me in your native language have touched me.
If you can, contact me at shawkenawe@yahoo.com.
Sending good thoughts and embracing comfort to you.
Shaw
TYPICAL THAT NANCY WANTS THIS HORRIBLE FIASCO WHERE 13 AMERICANS DIED OUT OF THE NEWS….BUT WANTS 1/6, WHERE ONE COP KILLED AN INNOCENT, UNARMED 5’2″ WOMAN, FOREVER IN THE NEWS.
FYI to folks... the post from Lady Pinkbottom is a direct quote from La Capitana of the HMS Mothership of Denial.
Most of you have read at least a few of her posts and comments over the years. Some may have even posted there before she decided to ban anyone with a different opinion.
I'm betting ppl here have seen her views over many years decrying us leftist liberals who hate the police being so critical when they shoot unarmed people of color in the back [Walter Scott], use chokeholds for misdemeanor crimes which lead to death [Eric Garner], choke a man out for passing a fake 20 dollar bill [George Floyd] and more.
In all those instances, we heard how each of those people would be alive today had they simply obeyed the police or never committed a crime in the first place.
How anyone from that crew can believe a woman crawling into a window she broke to enter a closed building being guarded by armed police is innocent and not committing a crime is incredible.
We really are left with only two options.
1. Lady Z is a racist, unable or unwilling to apply her standard of guilt on white people as she does to people of color.
2. Lady Z sees crimes committed by people whose political views she agrees with as not crimes at all, thereby rendering any action by anyone from her side of the political aisle in service of those views as innocent.
Either response is breathtaking, helping illuminate where we are today.
The very definition of innocent is as follows...
not guilty of a crime or offense, a pure, guileless, or naive person, a person involved by chance in a situation, especially a victim of crime or war.
Ashli Babbitt, the "innocent, unarmed 5'2" woman" broke into the closed US Capitol Building. On purpose. By her own volition. To hang, by her friends words, the Vice President of the United States of America. While the US Congress and Senate were doing their Constitutionally mandated duty. All because she wanted to overturn an election that the losing administration itself said was the "most secure election in US history."
Hey pinkbottom, your illusions and delusions should concern you. Seek help stat.
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