General John Kelly: "He said that, in his opinion, Mr. Trump met the definition of a fascist, would govern like a dictator if allowed, and had no understanding of the Constitution or the concept of rule of law."
This. Beyond all things this. The system might be bent out of shape and in need of maintenance but it still works. I am beyond happy.
Also, I'm cautious. Trumps followers don't respond well to bad news as they prefer violence to using their words. Be careful out there. Just a word to the wise.
It is about time the media circus and we are given a break All politicians should serve only two terms -- one in office and one in prison. Now that he hasn't been anointed by the republican they have a chance to save the country and nominate someone else. They won't but they have that opportunity.
Hallelujah!! Our system of justice held. Rational, logical, thoughtful American Patriots looked at the evidence, deleted the evidence, abd arrived at a decision. Which, regardless of skudsy's cynical bulls*it comment.
If the judge is honest he'll decide jail time for our Nation's first Felony Conviction of a president, former or otherwise. But that ain't gonna happen. The DOJ (Biden's DOJ) doesn't want to inflame the MAGA zombies.
It’s called “ digging in your heels.” They’ll understand that Trump is a convicted criminal, an adjudicated sexual assaulter/rapist, and convicted tax fraudster, but just to “ own the libs” they’ll continue to support the crook. And make fools of themselves.
Ms Shaw, Unfortunately I think you are correct. Now we have to sit through the appeals which could take several more years. It ain't over till it's over and we are not even close.
As goddamn slow as our justice system is it is still by FAR preferable and superior to the justice systems the MAGA folks seem to prefer. IE; That of Russia, North Korea, or any of the authoritarian regimes trump seems to prefer.
Personally I don't care how goddamn long it takes as long as trump never again has ANY governmental authority at any level of government.
“TRUMP SUPPORTERS: We know you're uncomfortable. Things don't add up. You're conflicted. What you feel is COGNITIVE DISSONANCE. We'll be straight with you: He was never a builder. He was never competent. He was never "one of you." He is a lifelong criminal whose only skills are committing the con, selling the grift, engineering the fraud, and avoiding accountability. And "The Apprentice" was ONLY A TV SHOW.
Stop the defiance and come back to the light. Open your minds to truth, however unpleasant. And truth is, you feel uncomfortable because you've been played.”
fun fact - just because one appeals a conviction as determined by a jury of ones peers doesn't make the conviction go away. The former guy can appeal until the money runs out but unless and until the conviction is overturned it remains on the books.
Funniest comment I've read about the situation today - Trump finally won the popular vote. And now that he's a felon he can't vote for himself in the presidential election this fall in Florida. Oh my stars, this is the story that just will not stop giving all kinds of yes, that's what I needed, accountability and proof the system sort of works (10+ gag order violations and the guy never spent an hour in lockup? Shameful).
Skud opined... "Now that he hasn't been anointed by the republican they have a chance to save the country and nominate someone else. They won't but they have that opportunity."
Here's what sad Skud... the GOP could dump Trump and begin the process of moving on with a Haley/Rubio ticket and they would crush Biden. But they won't. They are so invested not in good policies, but in Trump and his brand. They are so invested in the need to "own" the libs, they would rather stick with a felon who won't be able to even vote for himself in Florida, rather than win with a sane ticket.
Here's what I don't get, and I'm hoping maybe -FJ and Skud who both talk about a two tiered justice system run amok going after the GOP, can explain it to me in small words.
-A state elected Atty General in New York brings charges and wins a court case against a former GOP President. That is the Biden DOJ putting their political fingers on the scales of justice.
-A Georgia DA brings state charges for election interference against among others, a former GOP President, and that is the Biden DOJ putting their political fingers on the scales of justice.
-A federal grand jury brings charges against the son of a sitting Democratic President, and that same president, who somehow tipped the scales in the two state cases, let's this case proceed. And we hear nothing besides crickets.
-A federal grand jury and a "corrupt" FBI bring charges and indictments against a sitting longtime Dem Senator and his wife and again, somehow Pres Biden is not putting his political fingers on the scales of justice.
How is it possible that that in the view of GOP political leaders, that Biden only influences the DOJ and the FBI when it goes bad for their leaders and then when Dems get indicted, it's fair, just and righteous?
And the US can take pride in showing the world we are not afraid or incapable of holding a tyrant accountable.
Independents will peel away, but the Cult will only dig in deeper. They've gone way beyond appeals to reason and decency. Trump WILL lose and they will lose their minds.
The irony is now apparent. If the Republicans were a normal political party, instead of Trump's cult, they could probably easily win if they nominate Haley. Instead they will choose to be corrupt fools and unctuous cult snivelers to the end.
From attorneys who posted on Twitter, I understand that Trump CAN vote in the 2024 presidential election. Florida law determines eligibility for a felon to vote or not by the law in which the felon was committed. Trump was convicted of 34 felons on the state of New York, WHICH ALLOWS FELONS TO VOTE SO LONG AS THEY ARE NOT IN PRISON.
The convicted criminal, Trump, can,therefore, vote in Florida.
Now Trump can brag that he got a higher percentage of the vote than Putin or Kim from North Korea. He's setting records every day. Look forward to his truth social posts bragging this up. Magats everywhere will be proud.
Shaw... you are correct. I was thinking of the Florida law, recently passed by the legislature against the will of Floridians who a few years back voted by 68% to restore felons rights to vote in the state afrter they had served their sentence.
Then the state government, led by DeSantis, got the GOP led legislature and judicial branch to overturn the Constitutional Amendment the people overwhelmingly approved and took that new found right away.
So here's what I am hearing from the MAGA crowd, at least in Florida, where I happen to be visiting.
1. That the verdict was biased. 2. That the trial was bogus. 3. That this case never would have been brought against an "ordinary" citizen.
1. Unless someone was in that courtroom for all of the proceedings, they are unqualified to speak factually on whether the verdict was biased and not based on the evidence. And that includes me, everyone on this blog and almost every news reporter you can name.
We as Americans put our trust in our fellow citizens to judge others, to the best of their ability after having heard and seen all the evidence. Then after a verdict is achieved, we mostly accept it.
Do we sometimes get it wrong? Yes we do. But the majority of Americans, both liberals and conservatives, have for years accepted that in most cases, we do get it right.
2. There is simply no way to legitimately call the trial bogus. It followed New York law. Ppl claiming illegitimately owe us a reasonable explanation of why a state attorney general, applying the law of his or her state, getting a grand jury to indict a suspected criminal and then bringing the case to court, is bogus.
3. The ordinary citizen argument is just another dodge. New York has brought cases such as this for years. Additionally, there are ppl sitting in Rikers today for intentional fraudulent bookkeeping and then covering it up, so as to avoid detection of the very crime with which Trump was charged.
Should they be released? Was their prosecution bogus also? Was the AG wrong to bring charges against them?
Finally, another thought for any MAGA folks reading and lurking here...
Is it possible that the jurors in the Trump case saw the evidence and correctly determined that in fact, Trump was guilty, lied about the Daniels affair, sought to cover it to avoid the political fall out and paid Michael Cohen specifically to make it go away?
There is but one truth. Ultimately that will be whatever the final verdict following all appeals ls. The twump fiasco of narcissim following his other trials will likely end up in the SCOTUS if he loses.
Betcha twump will never see the inside of a cell block. Now THAT would be a miscarriage of justice.
Justice is the ethical, philosophical idea that people are to be treated impartially, fairly, properly, and reasonably by the law and by arbiters of the law, that laws are to ensure that no harm befalls another, and that, where harm is alleged, a remedial action is taken - both the accuser and the accused receive a morally right consequence merited by their actions (see: due process).
The convicted criminal is usually at odds with evidence, courts, due process, and a jury of his peers.
Unjust and draconian laws are another matter up for debate.
Some will judge the verdict as being just while others will view it as political. For those who supported trump that will not change but for those who view this as totally political this will increase his support and just may be the turning point to get him elected. We had a very liberal DA, put before a very liberal judge and a liberal jury bring charges against the most vilified person in politics. Why would you be surprised that his support would increase and donations are at an all time high. The poor who are harassed by law enforcement can say, he is like me so I will support him vs joey who says I have nothing to do with inflation and the economy is good. You can bury your head in the sand saying it is not true but thinking people, Ms. Shaw and Rev, will admit it is a problem.
Question is will joey b's handlers now have an excuse to not debate the evil felon?
When one forgets (completely) what they thought they knew that one opens the door to advanced leaning and wisdom.
When one holds on to unsubstantiated or false beliefs disappointment and or suffering results.
Truth, as determined by evidence, fact, intellectual inquiry, and valid cognition is how justice is arrived at.
Justice has been served. With more to follow. Our system works. Given trump's determined efforts to sow doubt and effect it's failing he failed. As he has as a decent human being.
So now the appeal process will begin. As the MAGA Clown Car of Insanity rolls on. As skudsy tags along just for the fun of it.
How do you define "very liberal" in regards to the judge and prosecutor? Also, does anyone know the names of the jurors? How can anyone say they were all liberal? Republicans live in New York, you know. Also as a reminder, the jury was picked and agreed to by both sides. Then, there is the Grand Jury that decided to indict trump in March of 2023. Who were they? Are they all liberals too?? Folks are just grasping at straws here, IMHO.
I think the larger question being missed in all the conversations about the reently completed trial is this...
Do you believe Trump was guilty of the charges?
That's it.
That's the only question that matters. Did Trump have sex with Stormy Daniels, which he denied, through his lawyers in court? Did he pay to keep her silent, which he denied, through his lawyers in court? And did he instead, fraudulently list those checks he signed as legal fees, when they were payments in an NDA to buy Daniel's silence days before the elections while his campaign was reeling from the Access Hollywood scandal, as he asserted, through his lawyers, in court?
Those three questions are completely incapsulated in my first question for all of us here...
Is Former President guilty of those charges?
Whether Joe Biden is behind the prosecution matters not. Whether state AG Bragg had a vendetta against Trump matters not. The makeup of the jury matters not. The opinion of Judge Merchan matters not.
The only thing that matters is how each of us answers the central question...
Is Former President Trump guilty of the charges, as the jury found?
skud opines "For those who supported trump that will not change but for those who view this as totally political this will increase his support and just may be the turning point to get him elected."
Really? Because in the polls I've read the former guy already lost 10% of those who said they would have voted for him if he'd been declared innocent. Also, I wasn't aware that a case presented to a grand jury had political bias because as I see it a grand jury is to lawfare what a double blind study is to science.
skud opens their yap again and this falls out "We had a very liberal DA, put before a very liberal judge and a liberal jury bring charges..." A. How do you know everyone one the jury was a liberal? If they were supposed to be unknowns for their own protection HOW DO YOU KNOW? Where are your receipts? B. I didn't know juries or judges could bring charges, how novel an interpretation of our judicial system. C. Are you saying someone who is liberal in their political leanings can't be impartial? Because you are implying the only reason the former guy was charged was personal belief and not the mountains of evidence they presented in court. Almost like what you say skud and what is reality aren't the same things at all.
And we continue with the Gish Gallop of skudsy - "The poor who are harassed by law enforcement can say, he is like me so I will support him vs joey who says I have nothing to do with inflation and the economy is good. You can bury your head in the sand saying it is not true but thinking people, Ms. Shaw and Rev, will admit it is a problem."
A. The poor are not saying he's just like me. The poor would have never gotten away with 10+ instances of violating a gag order without being thrown in jail. B. President Biden has done everything in his power to lower inflation but indeed he has no control over the corporations who report record breaking profits as they continue to increase the prices of goods all while claiming 'inflation'. We've told you it's corporate greed not inflation. We've presented facts, reputable sites to back the facts with verifiable research, and most importantly this - Amazon, Walmart, Target, and other large retailors are slashing prices for consumers. As the stories all say, realizing their mistake in posting record profits and salaries for the higher ups, the retailors are slashing prices for consumers. Not sure if this is too little to late but a human has to eat and cheap foods are a powerful attraction. C. There are many thinking humans who frequent this site. You skudsy, are not among them. Your off tone ideas parrot only the Fox News of NewsMax of Charlie Kirk of Todd Starnes of Steve Bannon of Alex Jones ideas, meaning spewing a metric ton of waste without a pony in site.
Final note: now convicted Felon Trump campaigned on the idea that President Biden wouldn't debate him, challenging any time, anywhere, any circumstances. Biden took the challenge and ran with it, setting the dates, times, and circumstances. And here is the funny part - after accepting the terms of agreement with the Biden campaign the Trump campaign tried to change the contract after they already agreed. I mean, can we have a more perfect metaphor of the characters of the two men?
The only one who is a weasel skudsy is Trump but you keep on trying to smear President Biden with the dirt of nothing. I'm sure there is a there there somewhere if you dig deep enough (narrators voice - in fact there was not any there there but the task of looking kept many humans busy instead of getting up to malarkey)
Shaw, I saw that Florida's rules for convicts allowed Trump to vote for himself. I was away from the computer yesterday, spending the day with my mom. It was lovely although she gave me a bag of cookies for the boyfriend and only one cookie to me!!!!
OK - the boyfriend cookies have nuts which I can't eat right now due to health issues and lack of teeth and the one cookie was a perfect soft in the middle crunchy on the outside chocolate nugget of amazingness. So there is that. And the boyfriend didn't have the best relationship with his own mom so the fact that she bakes for him is a blessing. Honestly, his energy lights up when I bring him mom treats.
Mom and I talk politics and we may have giggled a little at the reports of Trump and his followers having epic melt downs. Honestly if we two could be on the panel of solving the worlds problems we'd have the job done in a week. Maybe a month if we took breaks. All in all it was a very good, if long, day.
To all those who claim Trump was convicted ONLY because of a “liberal” judge, DA, and jury, and not because of the preponderance o f evidence, are you implying that justice has a liberal bias?
I’m guessing y’all are upset because your addiction to a cult and its leader has obliterated your reasoning powers.
As others have so intelligently observed, a grand jury of ordinary Americans heard the evidence placed before it and decided it warranted indictments against Donald Trump. And then a jury of ordinary Americans decided after hearing a preponderance of evidence that Trump is indeed guilty of the crimes he was indicted for.
It’s that simple.
Your anger comes from an irrational allegiance to an adjudicated sexual assaulter/rapist, a tax fraudster, a liar, a cheat, a fraud, and now a convicted felon.
I would suggest you look inward and ask yourselves why you feel so attached to that criminal. What human decency and values do you admire in that criminal?
Dave Miller asked "Do you believe Trump was guilty of the charges?"
After following the evidence, listening to the witnesses, yes, I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that the prosecution proved its' case against the former President of the USA. Trump committed the crimes, he is guilty.
As it has been said for a very long time, "If you have the law, hammer the law. If you have the facts, hammer the facts. If you have neither the law nor the facts, hammer the table"
Shaw, excellent advice. I hope they listen to you.
Blogger -FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said... Trump's now in Martin Luther King, Jr. and Nelson Mandela's company. The corrupt Democratic assassins can't be far
That statement is egregiously absurd and borders on the pornographic.
Also, “this is what it sounds like when losers cry.” Apologies to Prince
“They saw in the jury’s finding a rejection of themselves, and the values they believed their nation should uphold. Broad swaths of liberal America may have found long-awaited justice in the trial’s outcome. But for many staunch Trump loyalists — people who for years have listened to and believed Mr. Trump’s baseless claims that the system is rigged against him, and them — the verdict on Thursday threatened to shatter their faith in democracy itself.”
Senator Joe Manchin? You mean the senator who lives on a yacht in the Potomac in DC and drives a Maserati and represents one of the poorest states in America? And who gets tons of money from the coal industry while his constituents live in poverty?
…is that we cannot hold Donald Trump accountable for his crimes, because that would make America look like a “Banana Republic,” where they lock up their political opponents.
Excuse me, but do they think we’ve forgotten that at every single Trump campaign rally in 2016, they chanted “Lock Her Up, Lock Her Up?”
The GOP has taken on Trump’s persona, exhibiting terminal hypocrisy, never ending shamelessness, and a complete lack of self awareness
-FJ, who do you think is making death threats to 3 of the jurors. I assure you it wasn't democrats -FJ. It is twump's MAGA thugs. Trained by him over the last 10 years with his non stop conspiracy theories, delusions, and myriad lies.
MAGA and it's fraudulent dishonest premise(s) can't die soon enough.
What's amazing -FJ is that YOU remain supportive of a lying thug by following the path of a neo-Nazi pathological lying twump even after he was found GUILTY by a jury of his peers.
Well Shaw, we certinly aren't suprised by the ignorance or hypocrisy of the twump suporting Party of Conspiracy - Lies - Thuggery - and Division.
If this were any one of us we'd be looking at jail time and extended probation once out. I seriously doubt twump will experience any time and will be treated with child's gloves. Why? Because the judicial system has a deep fear if the violence trump's thugs will unleash if he's given the jail time he's willingly earned.
PL, Yes there are republicans in NYC but neither of them were on the jury. Grey, I did not expect you to understand what I said so no harm no foul. I did expect you to go on the attack offensive and you came through.
Rev, You asked a question about belief that trump was guilty of paying off a hooker to not tell she did him. Yes I think he did but if that were a crime there would be thousands of men a year convicted especially in Las Vegas.
If it were not just political why wasn't BJ brought to trial for paying $850,000 to Paula Jones to keep her quiet. If it was because trump didn't take action to prevent a riot then -H- should have been brought to trial for no action in Benghazi as a SS.
It will be interesting to see how the appeal turns out but it did keep him off the campaign trail for a few weeks so for joey b it was a win.
How typical that Thersites can't cite a specific incident supporting his claim. Does he really think antifa has the same massive megaphone and platform that Trump has?
Can he cite where an antifa person was on trial and violated multiple judicial gag orders and intimidated jurors and witnesses like Trump has done?
Are lies and fallacies all he has? So far, he's quite consistent.
Is Skud willfully ignorant of the Clinton/Jones open court settlement being AFTER his second term election?
Is he willfully ignorant that Trump's covert payoff was BEFORE the election, therefor an act of election interference?
I'm going to say, "yes", because he won't acknowledge the facts.
“ CLAIM: It is a double standard that former President Donald Trump may be indicted over alleged hush money payments to a woman who accused him of sexual encounters, while former President Bill Clinton faced no criminal charges for paying a sexual harassment accuser $850,000.
AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. Clinton and Trump’s cases have key differences, according to legal experts. Clinton’s $850,000 payment to Paula Jones in 1998 settled a civil lawsuit. The payment was public and legal, and the funds did not come from the government, nor did they amount to a campaign contribution. By comparison, the payment in Trump’s case was through a shell company and reimbursed by Trump, whose company logged the reimbursements as legal expenses in the final weeks of his 2016 presidential campaign.
THE FACTS: As a Manhattan grand jury weighs whether to indict Trump over hush money payments made on his behalf during his 2016 presidential campaign, social media users are spreading inaccurate comparisons of Trump’s case and one involving Clinton 25 years ago. “
Trump interfered in the 2016 election by conspiring to hide his adultries with a porn star and playboy model from the American people by buying their silence about his cheating on his wife, he then committed another crime by fraudulently accounting for his hush money payments.
The jury of his peers believed the evidence presented. Trump chose NOT to testify, and his lawyers made the decision with Trump’s agreement on who would testify.
Trump was found guilty on all 34 counts.
Trump was NOT inducted or found guilty for having adulterous affairs, cheating on his wife while she was home with their newborn son.
You are deliberately misleading yourself and others when you state that lie.
Skud, it’s pretty obvious to me that you ( and many MAGAs)have no understanding of why Trump was brought to trial and found guilty.
Trump was convicted of falsifying business records to hide hush money payments made to a porn star and playboy model during the 2016 election. These payments aimed to prevent damaging stories from surfacing and thus influencing the election outcome. This included using shell companies and disguising transactions to conceal the true nature of the payments, which is considered election interference by deceiving voters.
My question to you, now that you know that Trump broke the law and was found guilty by a jury of his peers, is how should the law treat Trump?
Should the law let him get away with the crime he committed? Do republicans care anymore about “ law and order?”
Should we change the laws so that when presidents commit crimes they escape punishment?
skud - if I ever come for you I won't be just fact checking you. My frustration appears because much of what many of us tell you is not new. Unless you are dealing with dementia issues (which I have a lot of experience in lately) you are willfully ignoring our facts and choosing to believe absolute crap.
For a community who (mostly - looking your way multifaced troll) wants the best for each other your willful ignorance is both puzzling and frustrating.
So Skud stated... "Rev, You asked a question about belief that trump was guilty of paying off a hooker to not tell she did him. Yes I think he did but if that were a crime there would be thousands of men a year convicted especially in Las Vegas."
Skud, did you follow the trial? It was not about what you stated. AT. ALL.
If Trump had just had sex with Stormy in 2006 and paid her off then to keep her quiet, there is no crime. NONE. It's perfectly legal.
But that is not what happened.
As Trump was running for president in 2016, the story started to come out. So the Trump organization moved to pay her off and buy her silence then.
Except, they decided to pay her off to keep it from becoming public out of fear of damaging his presidential campaign. So it was not a personal expense, but an expense to benefit the campaign, a campaign expense, if you will.
Again, except, the campaign, knowing an expenses like that had to be reported, they buried it in the books as a "legal expense", which it was not.
That bookkeeping act itself in New York, is a felony. It is fraudulent. A crime.
Moving on, there is the idiocy of Trump's defense. Literally, he floated the "it was simply a bookkeeping error" defense. But that was undermined by Trump himself when he publicly claimed the event with Stormy never happened. So his lawyer could not clean that up and proceed with Trump's claim.
Then they had no answers for any of the prosecution witnesses, because Trump himself was limiting his opwn defense, so as to avoid having to admit that he "did Stormy" and was afraid to tell Melania, which was a reasonable defense.
I think Trump did not care about being found guilty. I think he believes the trial did him good politically so maintaining his fictional account served him well.
I guess we'll see.
But let's be honest, this is light years different from Clinton. And if you can't, or won't see that, along with the myriad differences, it is not our job to "splain it to you Lucy...
Grey, It is his nature. Skud's conservative ideology has never been hampered by an open mind.
Belief is their reality, and beliefs are beyond examination. When they're to the Right, they're automatically right. That's how it works.
They never allow facts to get in the way of their BELIEIFS. Triggering their emotions is how their leaders instill those beliefs as the path to power.
It's always about who to fear, who to hate, and who will be their savior to punish the dreaded evil "others" who are all out to get them and take over their country.
"They are coming after YOU! I'm standing in their way." Sound familiar?
Hitler understood this. “I use emotion for the many and reserve reason for the few". And so does Trump.
Unfortunately, that's how authoritarianism, Trumpism and fascism have always operated.
It doesn't take long to discover their beliefs are rooted in selfishness, greed, resentment, anger, scapegoating, xenophobia, and at the extreme, racism and radical right nationalism.
With all those emotionally rooted beliefs they lack the concern for the welfare or opinions of others. It's always been about their easily manipulated FEELINGS, no matter their IQ. It's their EQ that is suppressed. Compassion and caring for the disenfranchised, sick and poor have never been part of their "values".
Taking healthcare, voting rights and reproductive rights from those they resent, hate and want to DOMINATE is what fills them with a gleeful sense of triumph.
Ask yourself skudsy what your thoughts and posistion would have been in 2008 or 2012 IF then President Obama had done EXACTLY as Dave M. outlined for you above. Exactly as the immediate former guy did.
Dave D., exactly. It is all about beliefs. I still remember how shocked I was while watching the Jan. 6 committee hearings. I can't remember his name but he was involved in the Georgia phone call with trump and he was explaining how everything they did was above board and the normal procedures, there were no fake ballots, etc. He told a story about a conversation with a good friend of his. His friend was an ardent trump supporter. This Georgia official explained everything that happened including what was actually shown on video tapes and that the Georgia election was valid and had been proven with at least one hand recount. His friend listened and after everything explained to him still said "well, I still believe that trump won."
MAGAverse travelers remind me of a group of the early 70's named Blind Faith.
There will always be the followers who will kindly follow their cult leaders. Trump is intelligent enough to realize that and he's amongst the best at knowing exactly how to manipulate his sheeple.
57 comments:
This. Beyond all things this. The system might be bent out of shape and in need of maintenance but it still works. I am beyond happy.
Also, I'm cautious. Trumps followers don't respond well to bad news as they prefer violence to using their words. Be careful out there. Just a word to the wise.
Grey One talks sass,
I live in Blue Boston, and my significant other lives in Blue, Blue Cambridge, Mass.
We’re good.
“The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.” -MLK
It is about time the media circus and we are given a break
All politicians should serve only two terms -- one in office and one in prison.
Now that he hasn't been anointed by the republican they have a chance to save the country and nominate someone else. They won't but they have that opportunity.
Hallelujah!! Our system of justice held. Rational, logical, thoughtful American Patriots looked at the evidence, deleted the evidence, abd arrived at a decision. Which, regardless of skudsy's cynical bulls*it comment.
If the judge is honest he'll decide jail time for our Nation's first Felony Conviction of a president, former or otherwise. But that ain't gonna happen. The DOJ (Biden's DOJ) doesn't want to inflame the MAGA zombies.
Skud, Les,
It’s called “ digging in your heels.” They’ll understand that Trump is a convicted criminal, an adjudicated sexual assaulter/rapist, and convicted tax fraudster, but just to “ own the libs” they’ll continue to support the crook. And make fools of themselves.
Ms Shaw, Unfortunately I think you are correct. Now we have to sit through the appeals which could take several more years. It ain't over till it's over and we are not even close.
As goddamn slow as our justice system is it is still by FAR preferable and superior to the justice systems the MAGA folks seem to prefer. IE; That of Russia, North Korea, or any of the authoritarian regimes trump seems to prefer.
Personally I don't care how goddamn long it takes as long as trump never again has ANY governmental authority at any level of government.
The Shallow State:
“TRUMP SUPPORTERS: We know you're uncomfortable. Things don't add up. You're conflicted. What you feel is COGNITIVE DISSONANCE. We'll be straight with you: He was never a builder. He was never competent. He was never "one of you." He is a lifelong criminal whose only skills are committing the con, selling the grift, engineering the fraud, and avoiding accountability. And "The Apprentice" was ONLY A TV SHOW.
Stop the defiance and come back to the light. Open your minds to truth, however unpleasant. And truth is, you feel uncomfortable because you've been played.”
Jared Kushner hit the jackpot. Both his father and father-in-law are billionaires and convicted felons. What a country.
fun fact - just because one appeals a conviction as determined by a jury of ones peers doesn't make the conviction go away. The former guy can appeal until the money runs out but unless and until the conviction is overturned it remains on the books.
Funniest comment I've read about the situation today - Trump finally won the popular vote. And now that he's a felon he can't vote for himself in the presidential election this fall in Florida. Oh my stars, this is the story that just will not stop giving all kinds of yes, that's what I needed, accountability and proof the system sort of works (10+ gag order violations and the guy never spent an hour in lockup? Shameful).
Skud opined... "Now that he hasn't been anointed by the republican they have a chance to save the country and nominate someone else. They won't but they have that opportunity."
Here's what sad Skud... the GOP could dump Trump and begin the process of moving on with a Haley/Rubio ticket and they would crush Biden. But they won't. They are so invested not in good policies, but in Trump and his brand. They are so invested in the need to "own" the libs, they would rather stick with a felon who won't be able to even vote for himself in Florida, rather than win with a sane ticket.
Here's what I don't get, and I'm hoping maybe -FJ and Skud who both talk about a two tiered justice system run amok going after the GOP, can explain it to me in small words.
-A state elected Atty General in New York brings charges and wins a court case against a former GOP President. That is the Biden DOJ putting their political fingers on the scales of justice.
-A Georgia DA brings state charges for election interference against among others, a former GOP President, and that is the Biden DOJ putting their political fingers on the scales of justice.
-A federal grand jury brings charges against the son of a sitting Democratic President, and that same president, who somehow tipped the scales in the two state cases, let's this case proceed. And we hear nothing besides crickets.
-A federal grand jury and a "corrupt" FBI bring charges and indictments against a sitting longtime Dem Senator and his wife and again, somehow Pres Biden is not putting his political fingers on the scales of justice.
How is it possible that that in the view of GOP political leaders, that Biden only influences the DOJ and the FBI when it goes bad for their leaders and then when Dems get indicted, it's fair, just and righteous?
Help me understand guys...
HUZZAH!!
Justice spoke today.
And the US can take pride in showing the world we are not afraid or incapable of holding a tyrant accountable.
Independents will peel away, but the Cult will only dig in deeper. They've gone way beyond appeals to reason and decency. Trump WILL lose and they will lose their minds.
The irony is now apparent. If the Republicans were a normal political party, instead of Trump's cult, they could probably easily win if they nominate Haley. Instead they will choose to be corrupt fools and unctuous cult snivelers to the end.
Dave M., Grey, Dave D., Skud, Les,
From attorneys who posted on Twitter, I understand that Trump CAN vote in the 2024 presidential election. Florida law determines eligibility for a felon to vote or not by the law in which the felon was committed. Trump was convicted of 34 felons on the state of New York, WHICH ALLOWS FELONS TO VOTE SO LONG AS THEY ARE NOT IN PRISON.
The convicted criminal, Trump, can,therefore, vote in Florida.
Now Trump can brag that he got a higher percentage of the vote than Putin or Kim from North Korea. He's setting records every day. Look forward to his truth social posts bragging this up. Magats everywhere will be proud.
Shaw... you are correct. I was thinking of the Florida law, recently passed by the legislature against the will of Floridians who a few years back voted by 68% to restore felons rights to vote in the state afrter they had served their sentence.
Then the state government, led by DeSantis, got the GOP led legislature and judicial branch to overturn the Constitutional Amendment the people overwhelmingly approved and took that new found right away.
So here's what I am hearing from the MAGA crowd, at least in Florida, where I happen to be visiting.
1. That the verdict was biased.
2. That the trial was bogus.
3. That this case never would have been brought against an "ordinary" citizen.
1. Unless someone was in that courtroom for all of the proceedings, they are unqualified to speak factually on whether the verdict was biased and not based on the evidence. And that includes me, everyone on this blog and almost every news reporter you can name.
We as Americans put our trust in our fellow citizens to judge others, to the best of their ability after having heard and seen all the evidence. Then after a verdict is achieved, we mostly accept it.
Do we sometimes get it wrong? Yes we do. But the majority of Americans, both liberals and conservatives, have for years accepted that in most cases, we do get it right.
2. There is simply no way to legitimately call the trial bogus. It followed New York law. Ppl claiming illegitimately owe us a reasonable explanation of why a state attorney general, applying the law of his or her state, getting a grand jury to indict a suspected criminal and then bringing the case to court, is bogus.
3. The ordinary citizen argument is just another dodge. New York has brought cases such as this for years. Additionally, there are ppl sitting in Rikers today for intentional fraudulent bookkeeping and then covering it up, so as to avoid detection of the very crime with which Trump was charged.
Should they be released? Was their prosecution bogus also? Was the AG wrong to bring charges against them?
Tell us...
Finally, another thought for any MAGA folks reading and lurking here...
Is it possible that the jurors in the Trump case saw the evidence and correctly determined that in fact, Trump was guilty, lied about the Daniels affair, sought to cover it to avoid the political fall out and paid Michael Cohen specifically to make it go away?
Justice is what people believe it to be. Opposite sides will perceive justice in opposite ways. And the fight goes on.
There is but one truth. Ultimately that will be whatever the final verdict following all appeals ls. The twump fiasco of narcissim following his other trials will likely end up in the SCOTUS if he loses.
Betcha twump will never see the inside of a cell block. Now THAT would be a miscarriage of justice.
Sam is correct about perceptions and beliefs, albeit one side generally has more legal/ethical/moral standing.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/justice#:~:text=Justice%20is%20the%20ethical%2C%20philosophical,and%20the%20accused%20receive%20a
Justice:
Justice is the ethical, philosophical idea that people are to be treated impartially, fairly, properly, and reasonably by the law and by arbiters of the law, that laws are to ensure that no harm befalls another, and that, where harm is alleged, a remedial action is taken - both the accuser and the accused receive a morally right consequence merited by their actions (see: due process).
The convicted criminal is usually at odds with evidence, courts, due process, and a jury of his peers.
Unjust and draconian laws are another matter up for debate.
Some will judge the verdict as being just while others will view it as political. For those who supported trump that will not change but for those who view this as totally political this will increase his support and just may be the turning point to get him elected.
We had a very liberal DA, put before a very liberal judge and a liberal jury bring charges against the most vilified person in politics. Why would you be surprised that his support would increase and donations are at an all time high. The poor who are harassed by law enforcement can say, he is like me so I will support him vs joey who says I have nothing to do with inflation and the economy is good. You can bury your head in the sand saying it is not true but thinking people, Ms. Shaw and Rev, will admit it is a problem.
Question is will joey b's handlers now have an excuse to not debate the evil felon?
When one forgets (completely) what they thought they knew that one opens the door to advanced leaning and wisdom.
When one holds on to unsubstantiated or false beliefs disappointment and or suffering results.
Truth, as determined by evidence, fact, intellectual inquiry, and valid cognition is how justice is arrived at.
Justice has been served. With more to follow. Our system works. Given trump's determined efforts to sow doubt and effect it's failing he failed. As he has as a decent human being.
So now the appeal process will begin. As the MAGA Clown Car of Insanity rolls on. As skudsy tags along just for the fun of it.
How do you define "very liberal" in regards to the judge and prosecutor? Also, does anyone know the names of the jurors? How can anyone say they were all liberal? Republicans live in New York, you know. Also as a reminder, the jury was picked and agreed to by both sides. Then, there is the Grand Jury that decided to indict trump in March of 2023. Who were they? Are they all liberals too?? Folks are just grasping at straws here, IMHO.
After 6 weeks of testimony,
The Defense: This is an honest, up standing, law biding individual who knew nothing of what that liar of liars Michael Cohen was doing.
The Jury: You've got to be kidding right? Sign the charging sheet guilty and lets get out of here.
I think the larger question being missed in all the conversations about the reently completed trial is this...
Do you believe Trump was guilty of the charges?
That's it.
That's the only question that matters. Did Trump have sex with Stormy Daniels, which he denied, through his lawyers in court? Did he pay to keep her silent, which he denied, through his lawyers in court? And did he instead, fraudulently list those checks he signed as legal fees, when they were payments in an NDA to buy Daniel's silence days before the elections while his campaign was reeling from the Access Hollywood scandal, as he asserted, through his lawyers, in court?
Those three questions are completely incapsulated in my first question for all of us here...
Is Former President guilty of those charges?
Whether Joe Biden is behind the prosecution matters not. Whether state AG Bragg had a vendetta against Trump matters not. The makeup of the jury matters not. The opinion of Judge Merchan matters not.
The only thing that matters is how each of us answers the central question...
Is Former President Trump guilty of the charges, as the jury found?
skud opines "For those who supported trump that will not change but for those who view this as totally political this will increase his support and just may be the turning point to get him elected."
Really? Because in the polls I've read the former guy already lost 10% of those who said they would have voted for him if he'd been declared innocent. Also, I wasn't aware that a case presented to a grand jury had political bias because as I see it a grand jury is to lawfare what a double blind study is to science.
skud opens their yap again and this falls out "We had a very liberal DA, put before a very liberal judge and a liberal jury bring charges..."
A. How do you know everyone one the jury was a liberal? If they were supposed to be unknowns for their own protection HOW DO YOU KNOW? Where are your receipts?
B. I didn't know juries or judges could bring charges, how novel an interpretation of our judicial system.
C. Are you saying someone who is liberal in their political leanings can't be impartial? Because you are implying the only reason the former guy was charged was personal belief and not the mountains of evidence they presented in court. Almost like what you say skud and what is reality aren't the same things at all.
And we continue with the Gish Gallop of skudsy - "The poor who are harassed by law enforcement can say, he is like me so I will support him vs joey who says I have nothing to do with inflation and the economy is good. You can bury your head in the sand saying it is not true but thinking people, Ms. Shaw and Rev, will admit it is a problem."
A. The poor are not saying he's just like me. The poor would have never gotten away with 10+ instances of violating a gag order without being thrown in jail.
B. President Biden has done everything in his power to lower inflation but indeed he has no control over the corporations who report record breaking profits as they continue to increase the prices of goods all while claiming 'inflation'. We've told you it's corporate greed not inflation. We've presented facts, reputable sites to back the facts with verifiable research, and most importantly this - Amazon, Walmart, Target, and other large retailors are slashing prices for consumers. As the stories all say, realizing their mistake in posting record profits and salaries for the higher ups, the retailors are slashing prices for consumers. Not sure if this is too little to late but a human has to eat and cheap foods are a powerful attraction.
C. There are many thinking humans who frequent this site. You skudsy, are not among them. Your off tone ideas parrot only the Fox News of NewsMax of Charlie Kirk of Todd Starnes of Steve Bannon of Alex Jones ideas, meaning spewing a metric ton of waste without a pony in site.
Final note: now convicted Felon Trump campaigned on the idea that President Biden wouldn't debate him, challenging any time, anywhere, any circumstances. Biden took the challenge and ran with it, setting the dates, times, and circumstances. And here is the funny part - after accepting the terms of agreement with the Biden campaign the Trump campaign tried to change the contract after they already agreed. I mean, can we have a more perfect metaphor of the characters of the two men?
The only one who is a weasel skudsy is Trump but you keep on trying to smear President Biden with the dirt of nothing. I'm sure there is a there there somewhere if you dig deep enough (narrators voice - in fact there was not any there there but the task of looking kept many humans busy instead of getting up to malarkey)
Shaw, I saw that Florida's rules for convicts allowed Trump to vote for himself. I was away from the computer yesterday, spending the day with my mom. It was lovely although she gave me a bag of cookies for the boyfriend and only one cookie to me!!!!
OK - the boyfriend cookies have nuts which I can't eat right now due to health issues and lack of teeth and the one cookie was a perfect soft in the middle crunchy on the outside chocolate nugget of amazingness. So there is that. And the boyfriend didn't have the best relationship with his own mom so the fact that she bakes for him is a blessing. Honestly, his energy lights up when I bring him mom treats.
Mom and I talk politics and we may have giggled a little at the reports of Trump and his followers having epic melt downs. Honestly if we two could be on the panel of solving the worlds problems we'd have the job done in a week. Maybe a month if we took breaks. All in all it was a very good, if long, day.
I wonder how the appeal will fare in Gomorrah's appeals court... LOL!
Joe Conservative,
That’s what people say when they’re angry over the jury’s verdict.
Stopolo,
That’s what people say when their side loses. Justice was served. Are you unhappy about that?
Trump's now in Martin Luther King, Jr. and Nelson Mandela's company. The corrupt Democratic assassins can't be far behind.
To all those who claim Trump was convicted ONLY because of a “liberal” judge, DA, and jury, and not because of the preponderance o f evidence, are you implying that justice has a liberal bias?
I’m guessing y’all are upset because your addiction to a cult and its leader has obliterated your reasoning powers.
As others have so intelligently observed, a grand jury of ordinary Americans heard the evidence placed before it and decided it warranted indictments against Donald Trump. And then a jury of ordinary Americans decided after hearing a preponderance of evidence that Trump is indeed guilty of the crimes he was indicted for.
It’s that simple.
Your anger comes from an irrational allegiance to an adjudicated sexual assaulter/rapist, a tax fraudster, a liar, a cheat, a fraud, and now a convicted felon.
I would suggest you look inward and ask yourselves why you feel so attached to that criminal. What human decency and values do you admire in that criminal?
Dave Miller asked "Do you believe Trump was guilty of the charges?"
After following the evidence, listening to the witnesses, yes, I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that the prosecution proved its' case against the former President of the USA. Trump committed the crimes, he is guilty.
As it has been said for a very long time, "If you have the law, hammer the law. If you have the facts, hammer the facts. If you have neither the law nor the facts, hammer the table"
Shaw, excellent advice. I hope they listen to you.
Blogger -FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...
Trump's now in Martin Luther King, Jr. and Nelson Mandela's company. The corrupt Democratic assassins can't be far
That statement is egregiously absurd and borders on the pornographic.
Also, “this is what it sounds like when losers cry.” Apologies to Prince
So absurd that Senator Joe Manchin can no longer stand to be identified with the DNC's corruption, eh pShaw?
JoeCon and Minus Eff Jay, does this include you?
“They saw in the jury’s finding a rejection of themselves, and the values they believed their nation should uphold. Broad swaths of liberal America may have found long-awaited justice in the trial’s outcome. But for many staunch Trump loyalists — people who for years have listened to and believed Mr. Trump’s baseless claims that the system is rigged against him, and them — the verdict on Thursday threatened to shatter their faith in democracy itself.”
Senator Joe Manchin? You mean the senator who lives on a yacht in the Potomac in DC and drives a Maserati and represents one of the poorest states in America? And who gets tons of money from the coal industry while his constituents live in poverty?
Good riddance to bad garbage, as they say.
From Democratic Underground:
The latest GOP talking point...
…is that we cannot hold Donald Trump accountable for his crimes, because that would make America look like a “Banana Republic,” where they lock up their political opponents.
Excuse me, but do they think we’ve forgotten that at every single Trump campaign rally in 2016, they chanted “Lock Her Up, Lock Her Up?”
The GOP has taken on Trump’s persona, exhibiting terminal hypocrisy, never ending shamelessness, and a complete lack of self awareness
-FJ, who do you think is making death threats to 3 of the jurors. I assure you it wasn't democrats -FJ. It is twump's MAGA thugs. Trained by him over the last 10 years with his non stop conspiracy theories, delusions, and myriad lies.
MAGA and it's fraudulent dishonest premise(s) can't die soon enough.
What's amazing -FJ is that YOU remain supportive of a lying thug by following the path of a neo-Nazi pathological lying twump even after he was found GUILTY by a jury of his peers.
Hear Hear!!
Well Shaw, we certinly aren't suprised by the ignorance or hypocrisy of the twump suporting Party of Conspiracy - Lies - Thuggery - and Division.
If this were any one of us we'd be looking at jail time and extended probation once out. I seriously doubt twump will experience any time and will be treated with child's gloves. Why? Because the judicial system has a deep fear if the violence trump's thugs will unleash if he's given the jail time he's willingly earned.
Antifa never intimidate jurors? Who knew? Vote Guilty or else. We know where you live!
PL, Yes there are republicans in NYC but neither of them were on the jury.
Grey, I did not expect you to understand what I said so no harm no foul. I did expect you to go on the attack offensive and you came through.
Rev, You asked a question about belief that trump was guilty of paying off a hooker to not tell she did him. Yes I think he did but if that were a crime there would be thousands of men a year convicted especially in Las Vegas.
If it were not just political why wasn't BJ brought to trial for paying $850,000 to Paula Jones to keep her quiet. If it was because trump didn't take action to prevent a riot then -H- should have been brought to trial for no action in Benghazi as a SS.
It will be interesting to see how the appeal turns out but it did keep him off the campaign trail for a few weeks so for joey b it was a win.
Trump thug? Well that explains the deluded gun-toting, bible-thumping, hypnotized portion of the current electorate.
How typical that Thersites can't cite a specific incident supporting his claim. Does he really think antifa has the same massive megaphone and platform that Trump has?
Can he cite where an antifa person was on trial and violated multiple judicial gag orders and intimidated jurors and witnesses like Trump has done?
Are lies and fallacies all he has? So far, he's quite consistent.
Is Skud willfully ignorant of the Clinton/Jones open court settlement being AFTER his second term election?
Is he willfully ignorant that Trump's covert payoff was BEFORE the election, therefor an act of election interference?
I'm going to say, "yes", because he won't acknowledge the facts.
Skud, are you being deliberately obtuse?
“ CLAIM: It is a double standard that former President Donald Trump may be indicted over alleged hush money payments to a woman who accused him of sexual encounters, while former President Bill Clinton faced no criminal charges for paying a sexual harassment accuser $850,000.
AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. Clinton and Trump’s cases have key differences, according to legal experts. Clinton’s $850,000 payment to Paula Jones in 1998 settled a civil lawsuit. The payment was public and legal, and the funds did not come from the government, nor did they amount to a campaign contribution. By comparison, the payment in Trump’s case was through a shell company and reimbursed by Trump, whose company logged the reimbursements as legal expenses in the final weeks of his 2016 presidential campaign.
THE FACTS: As a Manhattan grand jury weighs whether to indict Trump over hush money payments made on his behalf during his 2016 presidential campaign, social media users are spreading inaccurate comparisons of Trump’s case and one involving Clinton 25 years ago. “
Trump interfered in the 2016 election by conspiring to hide his adultries with a porn star and playboy model from the American people by buying their silence about his cheating on his wife, he then committed another crime by fraudulently accounting for his hush money payments.
The jury of his peers believed the evidence presented. Trump chose NOT to testify, and his lawyers made the decision with Trump’s agreement on who would testify.
Trump was found guilty on all 34 counts.
Trump was NOT inducted or found guilty for having adulterous affairs, cheating on his wife while she was home with their newborn son.
You are deliberately misleading yourself and others when you state that lie.
Skud, it’s pretty obvious to me that you ( and many MAGAs)have no understanding of why Trump was brought to trial and found guilty.
Trump was convicted of falsifying business records to hide hush money payments made to a porn star and playboy model during the 2016 election. These payments aimed to prevent damaging stories from surfacing and thus influencing the election outcome. This included using shell companies and disguising transactions to conceal the true nature of the payments, which is considered election interference by deceiving voters.
My question to you, now that you know that Trump broke the law and was found guilty by a jury of his peers, is how should the law treat Trump?
Should the law let him get away with the crime he committed? Do republicans care anymore about “ law and order?”
Should we change the laws so that when presidents commit crimes they escape punishment?
What do you think?
skud - if I ever come for you I won't be just fact checking you. My frustration appears because much of what many of us tell you is not new. Unless you are dealing with dementia issues (which I have a lot of experience in lately) you are willfully ignoring our facts and choosing to believe absolute crap.
For a community who (mostly - looking your way multifaced troll) wants the best for each other your willful ignorance is both puzzling and frustrating.
So Skud stated... "Rev, You asked a question about belief that trump was guilty of paying off a hooker to not tell she did him. Yes I think he did but if that were a crime there would be thousands of men a year convicted especially in Las Vegas."
Skud, did you follow the trial? It was not about what you stated. AT. ALL.
If Trump had just had sex with Stormy in 2006 and paid her off then to keep her quiet, there is no crime. NONE. It's perfectly legal.
But that is not what happened.
As Trump was running for president in 2016, the story started to come out. So the Trump organization moved to pay her off and buy her silence then.
Except, they decided to pay her off to keep it from becoming public out of fear of damaging his presidential campaign. So it was not a personal expense, but an expense to benefit the campaign, a campaign expense, if you will.
Again, except, the campaign, knowing an expenses like that had to be reported, they buried it in the books as a "legal expense", which it was not.
That bookkeeping act itself in New York, is a felony. It is fraudulent. A crime.
Moving on, there is the idiocy of Trump's defense. Literally, he floated the "it was simply a bookkeeping error" defense. But that was undermined by Trump himself when he publicly claimed the event with Stormy never happened. So his lawyer could not clean that up and proceed with Trump's claim.
Then they had no answers for any of the prosecution witnesses, because Trump himself was limiting his opwn defense, so as to avoid having to admit that he "did Stormy" and was afraid to tell Melania, which was a reasonable defense.
I think Trump did not care about being found guilty. I think he believes the trial did him good politically so maintaining his fictional account served him well.
I guess we'll see.
But let's be honest, this is light years different from Clinton. And if you can't, or won't see that, along with the myriad differences, it is not our job to "splain it to you Lucy...
Grey,
It is his nature. Skud's conservative ideology has never been hampered by an open mind.
Belief is their reality, and beliefs are beyond examination. When they're to the Right, they're automatically right. That's how it works.
They never allow facts to get in the way of their BELIEIFS. Triggering their emotions is how their leaders instill those beliefs as the path to power.
It's always about who to fear, who to hate, and who will be their savior to punish the dreaded evil "others" who are all out to get them and take over their country.
"They are coming after YOU! I'm standing in their way." Sound familiar?
Hitler understood this. “I use emotion for the many and reserve reason for the few". And so does Trump.
Unfortunately, that's how authoritarianism, Trumpism and fascism have always operated.
It doesn't take long to discover their beliefs are rooted in selfishness, greed, resentment, anger, scapegoating, xenophobia, and at the extreme, racism and radical right nationalism.
With all those emotionally rooted beliefs they lack the concern for the welfare or opinions of others. It's always been about their easily manipulated FEELINGS, no matter their IQ. It's their EQ that is suppressed. Compassion and caring for the disenfranchised, sick and poor have never been part of their "values".
Taking healthcare, voting rights and reproductive rights from those they resent, hate and want to DOMINATE is what fills them with a gleeful sense of triumph.
Ask yourself skudsy what your thoughts and posistion would have been in 2008 or 2012 IF then President Obama had done EXACTLY as Dave M. outlined for you above. Exactly as the immediate former guy did.
Dave D., exactly. It is all about beliefs. I still remember how shocked I was while watching the Jan. 6 committee hearings. I can't remember his name but he was involved in the Georgia phone call with trump and he was explaining how everything they did was above board and the normal procedures, there were no fake ballots, etc. He told a story about a conversation with a good friend of his. His friend was an ardent trump supporter. This Georgia official explained everything that happened including what was actually shown on video tapes and that the Georgia election was valid and had been proven with at least one hand recount. His friend listened and after everything explained to him still said "well, I still believe that trump won."
MAGAverse travelers remind me of a group of the early 70's named Blind Faith.
There will always be the followers who will kindly follow their cult leaders. Trump is intelligent enough to realize that and he's amongst the best at knowing exactly how to manipulate his sheeple.
Les
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