"Once again a pseudo-Christian group is about to engage in an act of terrifying idiocy that will needlessly endanger the lives of thousands of our service men and women. Story HERE.
I am talking about the plans by the Dove World Outreach Center to burn the Quran. The book considered by Muslims to be the holy word of God. They want to do this to commemorate the Sept 11th terrorist attacks. 19 al-Qaeda terrorists committed heinous acts on American soil but this group of mental midgets believe they should insult millions of people over the acts of a few extremists. As much as I am sickened and angered by the attacks that day, I certainly don’t accept the premise that a religion and all its followers should be held accountable for the acts of a few.
The Dove World Outreach Center has been denied a permit for a bonfire but they intend to break the law and proceed. Just the rumor that they are intending on burning the Quran has sparked violent protests in Indonesia and Afghanistan but they intend to proceed.
Gen. Patraeus has warned, "Images of the burning of a Quran would undoubtedly be used by extremists in Afghanistan — and around the world — to inflame public opinion and incite violence." But they STILL intend to proceed.
Like that moron from wikileaks, it appears that no amount of human lives is too much to pay so they can have their publicity and notoriety. Many of us have had or still have son, daughters, nieces and nephews overseas in harm’s way. And the Dove World Outreach Center wants them to pay with their lives for their actions – for which they will then take no responsibility, citing their right to freedom of speech.
I am so sick of people right now…"
FROM THINK PROGRESS:
Hate Pastor Behind ‘Burn A Quran Day’ Responds To Petraeus: ‘We Have Firmly Made Up Our Mind’
As ThinkProgress has reported, the Dove World Church based out of Gainesville, FL, is organizing an “International Burn a Quran Day” on September 11. Gen. David Petraeus warned yesterday that the hate campaign “could put the lives of American troops in danger and damage the war effort.” Gen. William Caldwell — the commander of the NATO training mission in Afghanistan — echoed Petraeus’ admonition on CNN yesterday afternoon:
CALDWELL: What I will tell you is that their very actions will in fact jeopardize the safety of the young men and women who are serving in uniform over here and also undermine the very mission that we’re trying to accomplish.
I would hope they would understand that there are second- and third-order — second-, really, and third-order effects that will occur that will affect that young man and woman who’s out there on point for America, serving their nation today, because of their actions back in the United States.
The good Capt. asked a very excellent question:
"And where are the Christians in their millions and hundreds of millions who should be standing up for decency and sanity and anything that could pass for "christian morality?"
Where the hell are they?"
31 comments:
bring him home
Burning the Quran?
Well, Americans have to start somewhere reclaiming their 'honor'.
And what's more American than making life miserable for brown, yellow and black people?
We are here. Check out Right Wing Nuthouse and my blog for a start...I'll also be posting in Republicans United about this.
I'm here. I'm a Christian. And sorry but as a Christian American, while I think burning the Flag, the Bible, copies of the Declaration of Independence or The Constitution is a stupid form of protest, I have to in the interest of consistency support these kook's right to burn Korans.
I would laugh hysterically and perhaps consider converting to Islam if Allah in his wisdom and notorious sense of humor and justice made the wind blow lighter fluid on these asshole which ignited the whole lot of them.
But Shaw and my other friends, radicals are going to find something to get worked up over no matter what. The nuts are going to hate us.
In a way, telling the kooky Jesus freaks not to burn the Korans is just as bad. It means the radicals know we are afraid of them. They'll run around screaming that Allah frightened the American infidels. It's a lose/lose situation these idiots created.
In the great scheme of things I'd just as soon the kooks burn their books and I excersize my freedom to taunt them as comprimise their freedom to be stupid idiots.
I seem to have been irritating a few of my Liberal leaning friends lately Shaw but as that one guy said, "I'd rather see a man wrapped in The Constitution burning the flag than wrapped in the flag burning The Constitution.
Discouraging; these fine folks started barbequeing
the printed page back in the days of Celsus and Porphyry. That seemed to work so well their heirs continued through the ages; as recently as a few years back-Harry Potter books burned by churches in
Michigan and New Mexico.
Harry Potter?! Celsus is laughing in his grave...
If those folks feel that strongly, find them a spot in a US military patrol in
Afghanistan.
Yes, I know they have the right to burn the Koran, but should they do so if it endangers the life of our military men and women?
Imagine is a liberal group were doing this and putting the lives of our military in danger.
Shaw: I'm not like these closed minded nuts who want to burn Korans. Just as millions of Muslims are not like Bin Laden.
Quite frankly, and run me off if you think I'm out of line, I don't care what radical extremists of any religion think. I don't believe their "feelings" should dictate how we act. I get angry when once every few years some joker tries to make a splash by putting a picture of Jesus or Mary covered with dung in an art festival. It's not art. It's just someone being an asshole for some attention. That's what this Jesus freak preacher and his congregation of maybe 30 people are doing.
As for radical extremist Muslims, they have had no trouble finding suicide bombers. We tortured Muslims. They were put in embarrassing pictures at Abu Graib. Gitmo is still open. At every Tea Party rally there are signs all over bashing Muslims.
If the Jesus freaks cancel the burning and Bin Laden goes on TV saying he will disband Al Queda because of it I'll apologise.
O Shaw, how are you? Been some time since I've posted here. Miss me Arthur? ;-)
Anyways, one don't need to imagine if a "liberal" group had tried this. Remember the Newsweek article of a Koran being flushed down the toilet at Gitmo? Turned out to be a lie.
Ooops, sorry, there is no such thing as the liberal MSM is there?
I wish this Pastor would find another way to express his feelings but he does have the right. I doubt if it will add to the Muslim hatred of our troops. They are already in harms way. I don't see how they can get more motivated to kill us. I wonder when we Americans will get more outraged that they would be outraged at us. After all, when was the last time someone was killed when the Bible was burned?
Since you asked I can't say I've missed you Jim.
And I can't say you've smartened up any.
But please, rage away.
"I get angry when once every few years some joker tries to make a splash by putting a picture of Jesus or Mary covered with dung in an art festival. It's not art. It's just someone being an asshole for some attention."
Then don't get angry. Unless it's because the art is bad. If this really happens.
No doubt the same people taking a match to the Quran and endangering American lives take it upon themselves to wonder daily why moderate Muslims don't criticize radical Muslims.
Arthur said: "But please, rage away."
Perfect description of your playing the race card so early in a race-free discussion of religion.
I have to agree with Truth 101 here. As a matter of human decency, Pastor Jones should heed the protests of the military and abandon his plan. But if he doesn't have that decency and insists on going ahead, we can't compromise freedom of expression. Especially if the compromise is made due to fear of threats of violence.
The question of this post "Where the hell are they?" is precisely about people speaking up against the pastor leading this protest. The post is not about the pastor's right to stage the book burning.
The beauty of our freedom is that people have the right to be idiots and other people have the right to call them on it and make it so uncomfortable that the idiots will rethink their actions--especially when it involves putting other people at risk.
When someone makes racists, hate speech or anti-gay statements on the public airwaves, people organize boycotts. That is not trampling on anyone's freedom of speech, it is making people responsible for irresponsible speech.
dmarks,
Arthurstone used the word "rage" and you call that racist?
Can you explain that bit of silliness to us?
Hmmmm.
And in what fantasy land is a good old fashioned book burning merely a 'race-free discussion of religion'?
So the good pastor Terry Jones is merely beginning a dialogue on theology with his rants? The fact that the adherents of Islam for the most part look, live and believe quite differently from Jones and his ilk is mere coincidence and simply a difference in doctrine?
Please.
I think we can all agree that just because one has the right to do something doesn’t mean one should see it through—especially if it could mean harm to another, like our troops.
I heard that the Pastor is reconsidering his “plan” due to numerous death threats and has taken to carrying a 45 now.
I wonder if this Pastor ever gave peace and love thy neighbor sermons.
Shaw, here is a link to a nice article in Slate asking where is the GOP leadership.
I might add, why the silence from a majority of Christian churches and leaders?
http://www.slate.com/id/2266404/
Thanks for the link, Dave.
This pastor, IMHO, is no different from the wackos of the Westboro Baptist Church who bring their hate-speech signs to military funerals. They have the right to do it, but a majority of decent Americans have the right protest their odious signs.
But the real mystery is where are the overwhelming majority--including tea baggers, who wave "Support Our Troops" banners and sport the magnetic ribbons on their cars?
No less than General Petraeus has said this book burning will place our military in danger.
I should think all Americans, left and right, would rise up and tell this paster that he is wrong.
see the second comment, which is from Arthur, in which he played the race card, but did not use the word `rage`. Nor was he racist. One can play the race card without being racist.
and Arthur` imagination then went into overdrive. Sorry, one form of bigotry is not the same as another. As deplorable as they all are. If Arthur can show actual evidence of racial bigotry from this pastor, then fine.
dmarks typed:
'Nor was he racist. One can play the race card without being racist.'
Whew. What I relief I passed muster.
But I did find someone who agreed with you dmarks:
COOPER: Do you consider yourself a bigot?
JONES: No, not at all. And we do not consider our message a message of hate.
It is -- it is a clear message of warning. We have tried to make it very, very clear that, according to the United States Constitution, Muslims are more than welcome in America. They are welcome to worship. They are welcome to build mosques.
We have made that very, very clear. I understand they're not in agreement. And they're mad and angry. They're -- they're -- they're insulted because we are burning the Koran, but they should, indeed, be with us on the fact that radical Islam is bad. It is evil. We do not want it in this country.
COOPER: Well, I -- I -- I think the vast majority of Muslims in the United States would agree that -- that extremism and radical Islam is a bad thing. And many of them have worked to -- to fight it.
But I asked about the bigotry, because the definition of a bigot that I just got off Dictionary.com is a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, especially on religion, politics or race.
You do appear to be remarkably intolerant on any ideas other than your own regarding religion.
JONES: We are -- as the Bible teaches, as Jesus teaches, we are intolerant, yes.
Pastor Terry Jones (I admit when I first heard this rubbish I hoped it was Monty Python) is really nothing new in America. The degree may vary but the impulse to religious intolerance is as American as baseball and apple pie. A key rationale for exterminating the aboriginal population, expanding across the continent and colonizing the Pacific was spreading 'Christianity'. It has profoundly influenced how immigrants and minority populations are treated and driven foreign policy since the founding of the republic.
And speaking of commemorating 9/11 which is, after all what the good pastor is doing, how do you suppose the vast majority of Chileans who suffered under the brutal right-wing dictatorship of Pinochet will mark the upcoming anniversary of the US-sponsored coup which overthrew the democratically elected government and led to the killing, arrest and exile of tens of thousands during his rule?
A bit of history most Americans don't know:
Chilean Socialist Party presidential candidate Salvador Allende was elected by a plurality in 1970, causing serious concern in Washington, D.C. due to his openly socialist and pro-Cuban politics. The Nixon administration authorized the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) to instigate a military coup that would prevent Allende's inauguration, but the plan was not successful.[31] The extent of Kissinger's involvement in or support of these plans is a subject of controversy.[32]
United States-Chile relations remained frosty during Salvador Allende's tenure, following the complete nationalization of the partially U.S.-owned copper mines and the Chilean subsidiary of the U.S.-based ITT Corporation, as well as other Chilean businesses. The U.S. implemented economic sanctions, claiming that the Chilean government had greatly undervalued fair compensation for the nationalization by subtracting what it deemed "excess profits". The CIA provided education for the military officers directly involved in the coup against Allende,[33] and funding for the mass anti-government strikes in 1972 and 1973; during this period, Kissinger made several controversial statements regarding Chile's government, stating that "the issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves" and "I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go Communist due to the irresponsibility of its people."[34]
On September 11, 1973, Allende committed suicide during a military coup launched by Army Commander-in-Chief Augusto Pinochet, who became President.[35] A document released by the CIA in 2000 titled "CIA Activities in Chile" revealed that the CIA actively supported the military junta after the overthrow of Allende and that it made many of Pinochet's officers into paid contacts of the CIA or US military, even though many were known to be involved in notorious human rights abuses,[36] until Democratic challenger Jimmy Carter defeated President Gerald Ford in 1976.
On September 16, 1973, five days after Pinochet had assumed power, the following exchange about the coup took place between Kissinger and President Nixon:
Nixon: Nothing new of any importance or is there?
Kissinger: Nothing of very great consequence. The Chilean thing is getting consolidated and of course the newspapers are bleeding because a pro-Communist government has been overthrown.
Nixon: Isn't that something. Isn't that something.
Kissinger: I mean instead of celebrating – in the Eisenhower period we would be heroes.
Nixon: Well we didn't – as you know – our hand doesn't show on this one though.
Kissinger: We didn't do it. I mean we helped them. [garbled] created the conditions as great as possible.
Nixon: That is right. And that is the way it is going to be played.[37]
There was information that the Chileans were planning Operation Condor in 1976. Kissinger canceled a letter that was to be sent to Chile warning them against carrying out any political assassinations. Orlando Letelier was then assassinated in Washington, D.C. with a car bomb on September 21, 1976.[38]
Intervention in Argentina
Kissinger took a similar line as he had toward Chile when the Argentine military, led by Jorge Videla, toppled the democratic government of Isabel Perón in 1976 and consolidated power, launching brutal reprisals and "disappearances" against political opponents. During a meeting with Argentine foreign minister César Augusto Guzzetti, Kissinger assured him that the United States was an ally, but urged him to "get back to normal procedures" quickly before the U.S. Congress reconvened and had a chance to consider sanctions.
See also: Dirty War
Arthur: I certainly agree with the statement from Cooper:
Well, I -- I -- I think the vast majority of Muslims in the United States would agree that -- that extremism and radical Islam is a bad thing. And many of them have worked to -- to fight it."
My point is that not all bad people are racists. If we are to fight racism, we should focus on those who actually are racist.
I guess the reference to brown, yellow, and black people by you was entirely superfluous.
Infidel is a wise man K. You should read his works often.
Now I shall go look at a picture of Madeline Murry Ohare and have a good laugh.
The vitriol exhibited by far too much of the right against Islam (with Pastor Jones among the worst) is not a discussion of comparative religion. It is a hate fest and depends on religious, ethnic and racial stereotyping. Burning the Quran & much of the opposition to the preposterously lied about 'ground zero mosque' amply illustrate that racism is alive and well in the good old USA. That certain people choose to ignore that fact speaks not to the 'superfluity' of mentioning it in the first place but, rather, to the lack of imagination which precludes seemingly rational types from grasping the obvious.
As I have said relative to the building of a mosque near Ground Zero, they have the right to do it, but the consequences to society will be dire. The same goes for burning the Qur'an.
It is a supid thing to do, even if the right to do so is not in question.
So there you have it. As a Christian right winger, I abhor and denounce the plan to burn the Qur'an.
http://scogginsnoggin2.blogspot.com/2010/09/whats-in-book.html
I had a drink this afternoon at the Minaun Heights pub on Achill Island, one of the most remote parts of Ireland. The publican, having recognized me as an American, handed me my drink and asked me if that church was really going to burn the Quran. When I said that I thought so, she shook her head. That's part of our image right now.
In the end, this is another example of the phoniness of the right. This should engender as much outrage as a community center in Manhattan, as should have the arson in Murfreesboro. But when the non-western religion is the victim of desecration, they simply don't care.
In the case of Murfreesboro, some have gone so far as to suggest that the Muslim community there set the fire themselves, apparently in order to make the good conservatives of Tennessee look bad. The right has defined itself in terms of rage and paranoia. What a dainty dish...
"As I have said relative to the building of a mosque near Ground Zero, they have the right to do it, but the consequences to society will be dire."
Oh, please. Dire consequences? A year from now, the community center will have the relevance of Elian Gonzales.
The most dire consequence possible out this entire mindless business would be if an organized campaign intimidated people from exercising their freedom of religion as guaranteed by the 1st Amendment.
It's one thing to say that the builders of the center of the right to build it but that it's not a good idea. It's another to express this in mass numbers with the kind of rage and bigotry I've read in comments and on blogs.
BTW, have you even been to GZ? If you have, you know that that that area is a byzantine warren of side streets, avenues, and buildings of all sizes and uses (including a strip club). The Pentagon could be two blocks away and you wouldn't know it.
The very first lie that comes out of the mouth of every opponent of the Cordoba Initiative are the words 'Ground Zero mosque'.
It isn't a mosque and it isn't located at ground zero.
But wait. There's good news! The Donald is going to fix things:
http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-offers-to-buy-out-ground-zero-mosque-2010-9
Next.
Joe: Even though I know that the Imam is a kook and that the ground zero mosque formerly had a provocative name, I have never been opposed to it being built, even at its location. For the exact same reason that I don't object to Christian kooks like Pat Robertson or the Quran-burner building a church.
Joe, how much do you really favor freedom of religion?
----------------
Arthurstone said:
"Burning the Quran & much of the opposition to the preposterously lied about 'ground zero mosque' amply illustrate that racism is alive and well in the good old USA"
Islam is not a race. Race is not the same as religion, except perhaps for Jews (for whom there is some overlap).
Forget comparative religion. You need Islam 101.
Thanks for the clarification dmarks.
But I'm fine with my take on the issue.
If you want to get past a vision of racism based solely on cartoon cut-outs like David Duke you might try this:
'Orientalism' by Edward Said
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