Paul Revere by Cyrus Dallin, North End, Boston

~~~

~~~

Al Franken, Roy Moore, Harvey Weinstein, Bill Clinton, Bill Cosby, Bill O’Reilly, Roger Ailes, and last but not least DONALD J. TRUMP.

All of the above have been accused of sexual harassment, and Trump has been accused by 16 women. Trump put out a tweet about Al Franken, which is a classic “pot calling the kettle black.”

The current POTUS, Donald J. Trump, is a serial adulterer and has been accused by 16 women of sexual harassment.

Monday, August 26, 2013

The GOP's Effort to Suppress the Vote




The GOP governors of GOP-controlled states have marched lock-step to the fake problem of voter fraud and have instituted procedures and new legislation that make it more difficult for certain groups to vote.

If states want to require voter IDs, they should make it easy to obtain the IDS and not make getting one a burden on the voting public.  But states like North Carolina haven't stopped at voter IDs, they've cut back on early voting and voter registration drives .  

Why is that?  


How does limiting the number of days for voting and for voter registration discourage fraud?  Of course it doesn't. 


But the reasons states like North Carolina, Virginia, and Texas are limiting voting times and making it more difficult to register are evident, and they are ugly.



How much voter fraud is there?  Almost none.


UFO Sightings Are More Common Than Voter Fraud 

The GOP says election fraud is rampant. A close look at the numbers shows there's no evidence of that.





MYTH OF VOTER FRAUD

It’s important to protect the integrity of our elections. But we must be careful not to undermine free and fair access to the ballot in the name of preventing voter fraud. 
The Brennan Center’s ongoing examination of voter fraud claims reveal that voter fraud is very rare, voter impersonation is nearly non-existent and much of the problems associated with alleged fraud in elections relates to unintentional mistakes by voters or election administrators.  Our report "The Truth About Voter Fraud" reveals most allegations of fraud turn out to be baseless — and that of the few allegations remaining, most reveal election irregularities and other forms of election misconduct.
Voter fraud should not be countenanced in our elections but we must find a balance and not impose solutions that make it harder for  millions of eligible Americans to participate in our democracy.



North Carolina:


"...the North Carolina legislature passed the country’s worst voter suppression law after only three days of debate. Rick Hasen of Election Law Blog called it “the most sweeping anti-voter law in at least decades” The bill mandates strict voter ID to cast a ballot (no student IDs, no public employee IDs, etc.), even though 318,000 registered voters lack the narrow forms of acceptable ID according to the state’s own numbers and there have been no recorded prosecutions of voter impersonation in the past decade. 

The bill cuts the number of early voting days by a week, even though 56 percent of North Carolinians voted early in 2012. The bill eliminates same-day voter registration during the early voting period, even though 96,000 people used it during the general election in 2012 and states that have adopted the convenient reform have the highest voter turnout in the country. African-Americans are 23 percent of registered voters in the state, but made up 28 percent of early voters in 2012, 33 percent of those who used same-day registration and 34 percent of those without state-issued ID."


Harsh Texas Voter ID Law 'Immediately' Takes Effect After Voting Rights Act Ruling



WASHINGTON -- Texas will "immediately" enact a voter ID law that a panel of federal judges ruled last year would impose “strict, unforgiving burdens on the poor," a top state official said Tuesday. The decision to go forward with a measure that those federal judges called “the most stringent in the country"







General Colin Powell:




"The concern I have now is that many states are putting in place procedures and new legislation that in some ways makes it a little harder to vote. You need a photo ID, but you didn’t need a photo ID for decades before so is it really necessary now? They claim that there’s wide spread abuse and voter fraud, but nothing documents, nothing substantiates that. 

There isn’t widespread abuse, and so these kinds of procedures that are being put in place to slow the process down, make it likely that fewer Hispanics and African Americans might vote. I think they’re going to backfire, because these people are going to come out do what they have to do in order to vote and I encourage that."




Colin Powell:  There is no fraud.


"Former Republican Secretary of State Colin Powell criticized North Carolina's voter ID law Thursday and claimed voter fraud did not exist in a speech attended by NC Governor Pat McCrory. 


'You can say what you like, but there is no voter fraud,' Powell said, according to the News & Observer. 'How can it be widespread and undetected?' According to the publication, Powell was the keynote speaker at the CEO Forum in Raleigh, North Carolina and made his remarks moments after Gov. Pat McCrory left the stage. 

McCrory was in the audience for a portion of Powell’s speech. 

'It immediately turns off a voting block the Republican Party needs,' Powell said. 'These kinds of actions do not build on the base. It just turns people away.' "

60 comments:

BB-Idaho said...

They deny it, but it reeks of voter suppression.

Shaw Kenawe said...

No one has been able to explain why limiting the number of days for voting and limiting the time for voter registration has anything to do with voter fraud. Or even closing down available places for voting (note: many of them in minority neighborhoods)

"Ohio theoretically requires equal treatment of voters in all parts of the state; in practice, it frequently ignores its own requirements, especially in urban, predominantly Democratic, neighborhoods. In Franklin County, for example, more than 2,500 voters in the city of Columbus found themselves crammed into a single precinct in 2004, even though the state's guidelines call for no more than 1,400—apparently because officials assumed that in a poor neighborhood, turnout would be low. The state only partially reimburses counties for buying electronic voting machines, so Franklin, like many poor counties, didn't have enough machines on hand to start with. When record numbers of voters showed up, massive lines snaked toward the handful of machines. The Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law has sued Ohio; among the complainants was an elderly woman with arthritis who had to leave because no one could find a place for her to sit.

Runners-up: New Orleans and St. Louis have long been plagued by long lines in poor neighborhoods; in 2000, so many polling places failed to open on time in St. Louis that a judge ordered the polls be kept open late, a ruling that Republicans battled to the last minute. In Broward County, Florida, waits stretched to four hours even during early voting in 2004; on Election Day at least one polling station didn't open until the early afternoon, and poll workers frantically calling the county elections office got nothing but busy signals."


from Mother Jones

Rational Nation USA said...

I just love poppycock, no matter which side from which it comes.

We have to be licenced to ercise our right to drive a vehicle legally in all states. But perhaps we should eliminate this requirememt as it might present a hardship to some every few years.

No matter how significant or insignificant the degree or incidence of voter fraud is in a very close elections it can have an impact. One that potentially can tip an election and essentially disenfranchise legitimate voters and their legal votes. Besides, these kind of laws can cut both ways and frightfully so.

Shaw Kenawe said...

RN,

A license to drive is not in the same category as an ID to vote.

If you notice, I did not come out unequivocally against an ID. I stated that the states requiring a voter ID should make it very, very easy to obtain one. IMO the burden should be on the state to provide its citizens the ID to vote if it requires one, so that all eligible voters can vote.

You did not address my questions on why limiting days for voting and for voter registration have anything to do with cutting down on the almost non-existent voter fraud.

If I don't have a license to drive, I have the option of other means of transportation.

If I can't easily get a voter ID, I am shut out of the democratic process.

So I don't see the two examples as the same thing.

Also, in almost every state in this country, no license is needed to buy a lethal weapon. You didn't mention that.



Rational Nation USA said...

The "Wicked" One said... "I did not come out unequivocally against an ID. I stated that the states requiring a voter ID should make it very, very easy to obtain one. IMO the burden should be on the state to provide its citizens the ID to vote if it requires one, so that all eligible voters can vote."

Yep, if you're a legal U.S. citizen who has the legal right to vote it should be the RESPONSIBILITY of the individual desirous of voting to present themselves at the appropriate place with the appropriate documentation showing they have the legal right as a U.S. citizen to vote.

The state should require this only once (for instances of individuals who after receiving registration to vote commit a felony resulting in the loss of that right the criminal justice system of the state/fed should be required to provide the information to the registering state body so the records reflect this and the right and the right rescinded.

It should be the responsibility of the state to make the process as easy and simple as possible. Photo I.D. however must be a part of the process just as it is in many if not all states for diver licenses.

And yes the principle is the same.

It is every bit as important (I would argue even more so) to the citizens of these U.S's, and thus the state that presumably works for them, that individuals who chose to vote have the legal right do so. As I said, every bit as much, if not more so, than it is they have the legal right to drive.

Shaw Kenawe said...

Okay, I'm still going to argue with you RN on the difference between a license to drive vs. a license to vote:

If I am unable to get a license to drive, that does not deprive me of my right to participate in my democracy. If I don't get a voter ID (for perhaps reasons that are not my fault), I am deprived of a say in who governs me and what those laws are that govern me.

PS. You've still not said a word about the states that have cut back on voter registration periods and in allowing more days for voting.

What has that to do with fraud.

I'll answer: NOTHING. But it will make voting more difficult for certain groups of people. And that's a tactic more worthy of a dictatorship than a representative democracy.

BB-Idaho said...

It's probably just me, but gerrymandering, big bucks in politics and special interests
lobbies seem more akin to election fraud than the few, if any cases prosecuted in court. (We have voter ID and my driver license photo is so bad I offered $10
if I could keep in in my pocket:
election boards are so honest, they refused...and had a good laugh)

Duckys here said...

RN, false analogy.

Now when there is so little evidence of serious voter fraud why the big push to make voting more inconvenient. In fact what does restricting early voting have to do with fraud?


Throw out all the false analogies you wish but in the face of no voting fraud issue an effort to make voting more difficult for certain groups deserves to be called by its name, suppression.

... and the gerrymandering hasn't started in earnest yet.

Shaw Kenawe said...

Timely letter to the Editor in The Daily Herald:

"Will election polls in the South be for white men only?


I watch movies to feel. “The Butler” made me feel … anger … anger with the people in the South.

I’m angry about the tacit acceptance of bigoted, exclusionary voter suppression. The voter suppression laws cropping up predominantly in Southern states, including Tennessee, blatantly target and are designed to block specific voters.

An array of voter laws has been designed specifically by Tea Party Republican policy crafters and enacted, with fervor, by Tea Party Republican zombies. Restrictive voter ID laws, reduced early voting, blocking Saturday voting and same day registration, closing polls, gerrymandering and establishing vigilante 'poll watchers' to challenge IDs are tactics designed to target Hispanics, elderly, the poor, students and black voters, to block them from voting.

These new laws are masked as steps to reduce voter fraud, a proven informational fallacy — a lie. North Carolina, Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, South Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Tennessee, Texas and Florida have been busy sneaking these acts into law. The Tea Party Republicans can’t win on ideas, so they will steal elections by denying free and open access to the polls to force their will on the rest of us. The South remains a swamp of ballot bigotry. 'The Butler' reminds us that Americans died for free and open access to voting in the South. I am angry and call on voters to get angry and stop the sneak attack on the right to vote.

Candace Wade,"

Shaw Kenawe said...

Forgot the link HERE.

Rational Nation USA said...

@ the "Wicked" One who said... If I am unable to get a license to drive, that does not deprive me of my right to participate in my democracy. If I don't get a voter ID (for perhaps reasons that are not my fault), I am deprived of a say in who governs me and what those laws are that govern me."

To which I say POPPYCOCK! Here's why; 1) There is no reason a individual who has a legal right to vote cannot get a voter ID. There are no reasons that are not the fault of the person who does not get a voter ID other than their own. None. Period. You have used emotion filled arguments here without providing examples to respond to. Real life examples that if you chose to provide them with your rationale I am prepared to respond to them. Item by item.

Not to be smart but we have a Democratic Republic, not a democracy.

"Wicked" - "PS. You've still not said a word about the states that have cut back on voter registration periods and in allowing more days for voting.

I see no reason why states should not allow voter registration and the ability to get a voter ID card year around at the appropriate locations (like town or city halls) until a week before election time.

McDonald's of course would be inappropriate for example :-)





Sephiroth said...

North Carolina Gov. Pat McCrory signed an omnibus voting standards bill into law. In a video message, he talked only about the voter ID portion of the law and assured citizens that only “the extreme left” opposed the law, for its usual crazy, extreme reasons. He neglected to mention that he’d just cut back on same-day registration and in-person early voting. Hours later the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People sued the governor, arguing that he and legislators had “evidence that African-Americans used early voting, same-day voter registration, and out-of precinct voting at higher rates than white voters.”

Rational Nation USA said...

@ Dave who said... "It's probably just me, but gerrymandering, big bucks in politics and special interests lobbies seem more akin to election fraud..."

Dave I wholeheartedly agree that gerrymandering, big bucks in politics, and special interest lobbies should be driven out of politics and the system of government completely.

That doe not change my position on the correctness of voter ID. and registration. Done properly it would pose no burden on anyone, except those who would attempt to vote when they do do not have the right, or if they are dead.

Lets take the emotion out of it all.

Dave Miller said...

Shaw... I had a discussion a while back on a conservative site regarding alleged voter fraud. the host, and many of her readers were convinced of voter fraud in certain states even though GOP Sec's of State certified the elections and had said the elections were fair and without fraud.

When presented with the voter tallies, as published by the GOP state dominated governments, and the fact that those tallies did not match up to their believed fraudulent voting numbers, they simply dismissed the numbers as also being fraudulent.

There is no reasoning here Shaw. The GOP fringe has decided that all results that do not produce a win for the GOP, or their preferred candidate, are fraudulent, evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.

I find it interesting that RN and other conservative leaning people, who normally would eschew government intrusion into our lives and the voting system, are in favor of more regulation into a system that has been shown to be almost fraud free.

It's as if they want to fix a system that is not broken.

RN, if you want voter ID, tell me how a conservative limited government person gets a federal standard passed?

Elections are under control of the states and there is no way to constitutionally develop a consistent nationwide system.

Shaw Kenawe said...

Representative democracy is a form of government founded on the principle of elected individuals representing the people, as opposed to autocracy and direct democracy.

The term republic may have many different meanings. It normally means a state with an elected or otherwise non-monarchical head of state, such as the Islamic Republic of Iran or Republic of Korea. Sometimes in the US it is used similar to liberal democracy. For example, "the United States relies on representative democracy, but its system of government is much more complex than that. It is not a simple representative democracy, but a constitutional republic in which majority rule is tempered."




Shaw Kenawe said...

"There is no reason a individual who has a legal right to vote cannot get a voter ID. There are no reasons that are not the fault of the person who does not get a voter ID other than their own. None. Period."

And tell me how you know this with such absolute conviction. Please.

Shaw Kenawe said...

RN: "You have used emotion filled arguments here without providing examples to respond to. Real life examples that if you chose to provide them with your rationale I am prepared to respond to them. Item by item."

Okay. Here's your example. This is just about North Carolina, but it could be repeated in all rural parts of this country:


No Photo ID

A lot of residents are applauding this new rule requiring picture IDs, such as Mac Lawrence. He's supervising big machines cropping leaves in his tobacco field.

"I think there's a lot of folks voting in more than one place. If you can't prove who you are, then you ought not be able to vote," Lawrence says.

Actually, evidence of voter fraud in North Carolina is pretty minimal. The State Board of Elections has reported only two cases of voter impersonation fraud in the past 10 years.

Still, Lawrence says presenting an ID is hardly a burden.

"I don't know a person in Bertie County who doesn't have an ID card of some type or another," he says.

But what do the data suggest? More than 300,000 registered voters in North Carolina could lack either a driver's license or a state ID, according to records from the State Board of Elections. And in Bertie County, almost 10 percent of all voters fall into that category, according to an analysis by Democracy North Carolina. Most of them are poor African-Americans.

Many residents in Bertie County possess photo identification for food stamps, but that ID doesn't qualify under the new law. Supporters of the legislation say even if you don't have a valid photo ID, you can still vote absentee. But you need two witnesses to sign your ballot. And you have to fill out a county elections form.

That might not sound like a big deal, but Horton says that can be a real obstacle for poor people. You're talking about voters who don't have Internet access in their homes, who will need hand-holding to get a ballot.

She remembers after a tornado hit two years ago: "We had people from the storm — these same seniors — that had damages and all, and could apply for FEMA. But because they could not read or write, they didn't want to be bothered with the application process," Horton says.

So Horton says she expects a lot of people just won't bother to vote absentee, and they certainly won't bother applying for a North Carolina state ID just to vote — so they might never cast a ballot again."

Shaw Kenawe said...

RN: "@ Dave who said... "It's probably just me, but gerrymandering, big bucks in politics and special interests lobbies seem more akin to election fraud..."

Actually, that was BB-Idaho.

Shaw Kenawe said...

"Voting Reforms Undone

Voting rights advocates have worked more than 10 years fighting for reforms — such as longer early-voting periods, same-day registration, and preregistration of 17-year-olds.

All of that vanished this week.

Bob Phillips of Common Cause says he finds it astonishing how far backward, in his view, North Carolina has gone with this new law.

"It's interesting how in 2008, we led the country in having the largest percentage increase in voter turnout," says Phillips. "Interesting that when we have a record turnout — a record turnout of young people, a record turnout of African-Americans, suddenly we are passing laws that are hitting harder those populations. Why is that?"



Well I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure it out.

North Carolina is taking itself back to the bad old days when if you were poor and a minority, that was just your tough luck, and you're just going to have to pay taxes with no representation.

And as long as those poor people are paying taxes, and even poor people pay all kinds of taxes other than federal and state income taxes, they have the right to vote.

The state and federal governments don't give a high damn if the taxes it collects come from literate or illiterate folks.

BB-Idaho said...

"Actually, that was BB-Idaho"
,,if the comparison was with Dave Miller, I'll take that as a high
compliment. :)

Shaw Kenawe said...

True, BB-Idaho, but that would go for you as well.

Shaw Kenawe said...

Great question, Dave.

RN?


"RN, if you want voter ID, tell me how a conservative limited government person gets a federal standard passed?

Elections are under control of the states and there is no way to constitutionally develop a consistent nationwide system."

Rational Nation USA said...

BB Idaho, my apology. Obviously I shouldn't have two things going on at once.

Not sure if it's the man thing or just the aging process :-)

Rational Nation USA said...

"RN, if you want voter ID, tell me how a conservative limited government person gets a federal standard passed?

Elections are under control of the states and there is no way to constitutionally develop a consistent nationwide system."

Good point, Something worth considering changing
"RN, if you want voter ID, tell me how a conservative limited government person gets a federal standard passed?

Elections are under control of the states and there is no way to constitutionally develop a consistent nationwide system."

Good point, something worth considering changing to get it done equitably across all fifty states and keep the progressives less up in arms over reasonable prudent measures.

Fraud apparently is only bad when it is fraud the progressives dislike.

Shaw Kenawe said...

RN: "Fraud apparently is only bad when it is fraud the progressives dislike."

Can you clarify this? I mean, can you tell us about the sort of fraud progressive like? And back it up with facts?

Let's keep the discussion away from hyperbole.

PS. Did you read Dave's comment about how miniscule "voter fraud" is?

Rational Nation USA said...

Sorry to have hit a nerve Shaw.

I have stated my reasonable points points reasonably well I think, so, I'm through with chasing my tail around the same coffee table of ideas that we have all heard many times, as well a making the some points over and again and again.

Running the issue through the same meat grinder multiple times (and both sides of this discussion do it) actually yields the same results. Everybody goes away with their minds unchanged.

It has been said that doing the same same over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. The same I believe can be applied to the discussion of this issue.

There is nothing that will change my views on this and I doubt anything will change you're or the minds of others here either.

So, other than the the comment "Fraud apparently is only bad when it is fraud the progressives dislike", made intentionally to make a point I leave this conversation with mind unchanged on this issue. And yes, I read Dave's comment.

BB-Idaho said...

From a friend in North Carolina:
"It is far easier to get an AR15 than it is to vote. Voting, especially in the regions around Boone, requires traversing a veritable minefield of obstacles."
..we get what we vote for..especially if we cannot vote.

taospeaks said...

Since 1932 we have had only 4 elections out of 21 Presidential elections where more than 60% of the eligible voters actually went out and voted.

The voter suppression has nothing to do with fraud and or picture ID but has everything to do cutting back on the availability of voting booths and making voting convenient.

Sorry, I think polls should be open for 24 hours a day 7 days a week for three weeks prior to an election. I think we should have trucks with voting booths that will come to you rather than you having to go to them. I think we should be able to vote via the internet.

....and I see nothing wrong with accepting a fellow citizens word and thus I am against voter picture ID's.

Every US citizen should want to get voter turnout back to 80 to 85%.

It makes no difference if you consider the US a Republic or a Democracy (That was one of the dumbest comments RN has ever made).

Rational Nation USA said...

And TAO, irrespective or your opinion the last of your statements is the dumbest comment you have ever made

As to the rest of your comment you are entitled to your opinion. It happens not to be the opinion of everybody.

So, continue on. I will and so will millions of others.

Jerry Critter said...

RN said about voter registration - "Done properly it would pose no burden on anyone..."

That is Shaw's point. It is NOT being done properly, hence it is suppressing the vote, not enhancing the vote.

Rational Nation USA said...

Really, thanks for clearing that up for me Jerry.

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

Voter ID laws have been passed in eleven Republican states since the 2010 midterm elections. But studies have shown that in-person voter fraud is virtually nonexistent, and a wave of critics of the laws contend that the groups most likely to be turned away at the polls for not having valid state-issued IDs are: African Americans, Latinos, the poor, students and young voters, and senior citizens -- groups that traditionally vote Democratic.

Indeed even the Republican National Lawyers Association couldn’t find any voter fraud either. As part of its effort to build support for voter ID laws, the Republican National Lawyers Association last year published a report that identified only 400 election fraud prosecutions over a decade across the entire country. That’s not even one per state per year. Yet, an estimated 3 to 5 million voters will be disenfranchised in each and every election - enough to alter many outcomes.

I don't give a damn how Republicans spin the issue with the usual lies, innuendos, defamations and pandering; Voter suppression represents a tilt towards totalitarianism.

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

The following quotation is written by Mike Lofgren, a former Republican Congressional staffer who retired after 28 years:

Reflections of a GOP Operative Who Left the Cult

Ever since Republicans captured the majority in a number of state legislatures last November, they have systematically attempted to make it more difficult to vote: by onerous voter ID requirements (in Wisconsin, Republicans have legislated photo IDs while simultaneously shutting Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) offices in Democratic constituencies while at the same time lengthening the hours of operation of DMV offices in GOP constituencies); by narrowing registration periods; and by residency requirements that may disenfranchise university students.

This legislative assault is moving in a diametrically opposed direction to 200 years of American history, when the arrow of progress pointed toward more political participation by more citizens. Republicans are among the most shrill in self-righteously lecturing other countries about the wonders of democracy; exporting democracy (albeit at the barrel of a gun) to the Middle East was a signature policy of the Bush administration. But domestically, they don't want those people voting.

You can probably guess who those people are. Above all, anyone not likely to vote Republican. As Sarah Palin would imply, the people who are not Real Americans. Racial minorities. Immigrants. Muslims. Gays. Intellectuals. Basically, anyone who doesn't look, think, or talk like the GOP base. This must account, at least to some degree, for their extraordinarily vitriolic hatred of President Obama. I have joked in the past that the main administration policy that Republicans object to is Obama's policy of being black.

Among the GOP base, there is constant harping about somebody else, some "other," who is deliberately, assiduously and with malice aforethought subverting the Good, the True and the Beautiful: Subversives. Commies. Socialists. Ragheads. Secular humanists. Blacks. Fags. Feminazis. The list may change with the political needs of the moment, but they always seem to need a scapegoat to hate and fear.

skudrunner said...

Wicked
"I watch movies to feel. “The Butler” made me feel … anger … anger with the people in the South."

Democrats have a disdain for Ronald Reagan and this movie is another attempt to make him look bad.
You believe this is an honest portrayal even though it is fiction.

Your disdain for the South is part of a elitist belief that was probably engrained as a youth.

Anonymous said...

Unless voter ID's are free, they are nothing more than a poll tax. If you don't think people have trouble getting one, then you are an elitist who doesn't understand being in poverty.
Fact: there is no voter fraud problem. In the last election the only voter fraud incident involved Republican operatives causing that fraud. So that makes that excuse, a lie.
Since there is no voter fraud problem, why should we change what has worked so well for decades and centuries?
Why eliminate extended voting hours, which are all ready law?
Don't we want to make voting as accessible as possible? If not, why not?
Driving is a privileged. Voting is a right. BIG difference.

okjimm said...

Rhwe Republican Party is not trying to fight voter fraud......fraud is virtually non-existent----and this is not merely 'voter suppression....let's call it what it is....ELECTION RIGGING and it is illegal.....

Dave Miller said...

RN, you're dealing in red herring land.

Neither Shaw, nor I are saying some restrictions are bad.

The question we have is this... Can anyone show evidence of widespread abuse of our election system whereby people with no right to vote are in fact getting to vote?

I believe the fraud you speak of, when reflexively calling out the liberal response, relates more to a liberal charge that people are fraudulently being denied the right to vote.

There has been no clamor from the left that there are too many white folks voting and so we need to check their ID's at the door.

The only party, unless you have some new information, that is trying to make voting officially more difficult is the GOP.

Since there is no empirical evidence that people are abusing the right to vote, and that 1000's of illegal votes have been cast in past elections, why are they doing that?

You persist in trying to equate liberal/Democratic policies with the GOP and seldom offer links, or proof to support your claims, and then when called on this, in high minded fashion, you declare the discussion beneath you.

It is not about convincing you, or getting you to change your mind. It's about reality.

If you want uniform policies, and I think it is a good idea, I am sure a majority of Dems would support that on a national level, but you will never get the GOP on board for that.

Like Shaw, I will await your links and responses...

FreeThinke said...

_____The Futile Dream of Equity _____

When the race has all turned beige
And all the hair is woolly blond
And all the slanted eyes are blue
Folks will still find reasons not to be fond
And want to screw
And torture, maim and kill,
Because we are from sunny humor disengaged,
Thrive on envy and ill will
And suffer from a lust to be enraged.

The short will hate the tall
The idiots the bright
The fat pray for the fall
Of the slim with bodies tight.
The bad will loathe the good
Just because they're knaves
And postpone doing what they should
Until they reach their graves.


~ FreeThinke

Shaw Kenawe said...

skudrunner said...
Wicked
"I watch movies to feel. “The Butler” made me feel … anger … anger with the people in the South."


skud, I didn't write that. I didn't see the movie. Please stop implying that I write things which I most certainly did not. Thanks.

skud: "Democrats have a disdain for Ronald Reagan"

How old are you? Do you not know that Ronald Reagan won so massively because of the Democrats who voted for him? So what you've written is not true. Maybe some MATURE Democrats have learned that he wasn't the greatest thing that ever happened to this country and feel buyers remorse, but Democrats definitely LOVED Ronnie Raygun!



skud: "and this movie is another attempt to make him look bad.
You believe this is an honest portrayal even though it is fiction."


Where exactly have I written that? I haven't seen the movie! Have you been noshing on magic mushrooms? Inhaling weed?

What made you make that ca-ca up?

skud: "Your disdain for the South is part of a elitist belief that was probably engrained as a youth."

Here's a fact you don't know:

MY PARENTS WERE SOUTHERNERS!

Shaw Kenawe said...

Conservatives Are Finally Admitting What Voter Suppression Laws Are All About
—By Kevin Drum| Mon Aug. 26, 2013 10:55 AM PDT
163

North Carolina's new voter ID law is ostensibly designed to reduce voter fraud. That's the official story, anyway. But if that's the case, why did North Carolina also pass a whole bunch of other voting restrictions, including limits on early voting? Phyllis Schlafly, the doyen of right-wing crankery, explains that the reason was simple: "Early voting plays a major role in Obama's ground game....[It] is an essential component of the Democrats' get-out-the-vote campaign." Steve Benen comments:

Have you ever heard a political figure accidentally read stage direction, unaware that it's not supposed to repeated out loud? This is what Schlafly's published column reminds me of.

For North Carolina Republicans, the state's new voter-suppression measures are ostensibly legitimate — GOP officials are simply worried about non-existent fraud. The response from Democrats and voting-rights advocates is multi-faceted, but emphasizes that some of these measures, including restrictions on early voting, have nothing whatsoever to do with fraud prevention and everything to do with a partisan agenda.

And then there's Phyllis Schlafly, writing a piece for publication effectively saying Democrats are entirely right — North Carolina had to dramatically cut early voting because it's not good for Republicans.

Remember, Schlafly's piece wasn't intended as criticism; this is her defense of voter suppression in North Carolina. Proponents of voting rights are arguing, "This is a blatantly partisan scheme intended to rig elections," to which Schlafly is effectively responding, "I know, isn't it great?"

Rational Nation USA said...

Dave, it is unfortunate that you think I am being high minded. But you are certainly as entitled to your opinion as anyone else.

I am not going to waste my time scouting the annals of statistics because numbers don't lie but liars figure. In addition, when I point to data, or links generally, especially on progressive or right wing wacko sites it's considered invalid and somebody presents a counter bit to prove it. Tit for Tat, much lies in the interpretation.

I have long felt voter ID should be the norm. I do not support that there should be a charge as anon stated, I see no purpose in reducing the number of days a person can register and in states that have voter ID laws they should be able to register and get voter ID cards 5 days a week 8 hours a day year around, less holidays and immediately before election day.

In the case of demonstrable hardship the town clerk might set certain days and hours a runner or runners could go to the individual(s) with hardships and register them and take the picture for the ID.

There are ways voter ID could be made to work, but in as much as the left clamors about the purpose of Voter ID being to simply suppress the vote I hear almost nothing from the left as to how to make it work.

Personally, IMNHO voter fraud should be zero and the citizenry's interest should be to see it zero, not that it will ever happen, but that should be the goal. To accept mediocrity in the voting process is nothing I can accept. If that is high mindedness then it is what it is. I will make no apology for it.

For some reason regardless of what I say, no matter that the majority of my position is NON restrictive, which is as it should be, I'm wrong. That is fine, no problem if you wish to hold that view, I certainly do when I think you, Shaw, or any other liberal is wrong. That's how it works, I'm perfectly okay with that. But I ask you, why should I continue to to debate the issue at this point? Your position, as is Shaw's and most others here are etched in granite. As is mine. However, my view DES NOT MIRROR a law that makes it more difficult to vote.

Perhaps it is not worth even worrying about it, but I like you think is. We want the same thing, none of us want a system that intentionally tilts the outcome to either party. And we don't want to disenfranchise any individual who has the legal right to vote from doing so.

Since we are mot going to be to change North Carolina's law, that will be up to the courts I surmise, I was simply putting thoughts out there for whatever they might be worth.

Anyway Dave thanks for the input, always welcome. On this one we'll just have to agree to disagree. For now it's movie time at the Carpenter household.

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

Shaw,

A few words on Skudrunner's comment (above):

"The Butler” is ostensibly a biopic, meaning a true story based on the life Cecil Gaines, who witnessed the coerced rape of his mother, the murder of his father, and the lynching of his people in the Deep South of his childhood. Skudrunner has termed this biopic a work of “fiction.”

For anyone, witnessing the rape of a mother and the murder of a father, these are traumatic events in the life of a person. And there is a moral obligation to acknowledge, confirm, and validate such atrocities. But not in the twisted mind of Skudrunner who cannot validate the suffering of fellow human beings without filtering every goddamn comment through a partisan and subjective lens.

No, the bastard has not one thread of common decency. Having lost ancestors in the Holocaust, I find his comment offensive and deplorable beyond excuse. Yup, if an accident of history changed the time and place of the Holocaust, this jerk would dismiss it as just another partisan hatchet-job. NO THANK YOU!

Sorry to be blunt, but I cannot and will not participate in any comment thread with this unrelenting piece of crap hanging around.

skudrunner said...

Wicked and Octo,

I realize you love to go off on conservatives and especially me but in this instance both of you are incorrect.
Wicked, you quoted an article under your name without disagreeing so you did take ownership of it's contents. I didn't mention your hatred of Reagan just democrats.
Having parents who were born in the south does not make you a Southerner.

Octo,

Lovely diatribe but I said nothing about Mr. Gaines. What I did say is the portrayal of Reagan was inaccurate and therefore fiction.
Somehow you included the holocaust in your response and I am uncertain why you felt that had any relevancy.

I was raised in the south in the 50's so I am more aware than you of what the racial divide was. I also believe the past is the past and we must move forward although I know that is contrary to the beliefs of some.

George Whyte said...

Always On WatchAugust 27, 2013 at 4:59:00 PM EDT
"The victimhood mentality -- as evidenced by Anonymous @ 3:41 today -- is a pity party that denies the reality, specifically, that blacks in America today are not slaves."



Victimhood? I gotcha victimhood right here:

Always On WatchAugust 28, 2013 at 5:12 AM
"We who are white are now automatically targets. Disbelieve that at your own peril."


The far righties -- can't live with 'em, can't make any sense of 'em either.

Shaw Kenawe said...

skud, did you know that "wicked" is an adjverb used in my neck of the woods to mean "awesome," as in "wicked good?"

Every time you refer to me as "wicked," you're complimenting me on my wicked awesomeness. Thank you for that.


It is YOU skud, who comes here and twists my words, and in the past, selectively quoted President Obama's words "You didn't make that..." to make your partisan points. When I or any other commenter counters your propaganda, you take umbrage.

Don't come here if you don't want to be corrected for the propaganda and biases you leave here.

Slavery did not end until the 1970s, and the southern sport of lynching black citizens continued into the 1980s:

"But even with these reminiscences, those times have the feel of distant history, of dusty newsreels and faded photographs. So the program’s central focus is on what it calls the last lynching in the United States: the murder of Michael A. Donald, 19, by two young Ku Klux Klansmen in Mobile, Ala., in 1981. Or as Representative Artur Davis of Alabama, the third delegate Mr. Koppel spends time with, says, “in the era of color TV.

James Knowles, one of the murderers, says on the program that he and his confederate, Henry Hays, the son of the local Klan chief, had randomly selected Mr. Donald as he was walking down a street one night. The two kidnapped him at gunpoint, then drove to a wooded area where they beat him and slit his throat. They returned to hang the body from a tree within view of the Hays family home.”


SOURCE

So your implication of being more aware of what happened in the south because you grew up there in the '50s does not automatically confer legitimacy on what you experienced, certainly if you know nothing about the above.

Saying "the past is the past," more than anything I could ever write, tells us much about a certain southern arrogance in refusing to face what is endemic in particular parts of that region, and how that arrogance and, in many cases, racial bigotry has affected our current president.


The letter to the Editor that you ascribe as my opinion, since I did not repudiate it, stands on its own.

As does what (O)CT(O)PUS wrote.

Shaw Kenawe said...

GW,

Those examples of contradiction are nothing that I didn't already know. It is they who lack self-awareness of their silly contradictions.

Rational Nation USA said...

Mrs. Rational Nation and I saw "The Butler" this past weekend. We both thought the movie over all was "okay." The main character actors we thought did an excellent job.

Viewing the movie from the historical perspective and the reality of existence for blacks in America during those years it was accurate and powerfully moving. Only someone looking to divert attention from the core message of the movie would be concerened about rather insignificant side issues.

Rational Nation USA said...

Hey "Wicked", are propaganda and bias subjective concepts? Are they synonomous? Or does one preceed the other? Does bias or ones interpretation of supposed facts lead to propaganda? Where is the line between an honest attempt at interpreting data and presenting a conclusion and propaganda?

This might hep me and skud to understand it all more clearly. I await your wicked response.

Dave Miller said...

RN... I'd like, respectfully, to reengage on the issue of voter fraud.

In a country of 300 million, even with universal voter ID, there is going to be some amount of voter fraud. It is inevitable.

So let me ask a few questions of you. I am trying to understand the mindset of people more conservative than me.

Has there been any significant evidence of voter fraud in any of the last few [1980 to present] elections?

Have any secretary's of state, in any state, believed that their elections were fraudulently impacted, or a result arrived at different from what the electorate desired as a result of any voter fraud?

Thanks in advance for your answers... and I'll be happy to do this via email if you desire...

FreeThinke said...

I like rhymes, but not because they're clever.

It’s more because they don't go on forever.



If brevity at times our writing's lacked,

Verse at least shares thoughts in ways compact.


_________________ ~ § ~ ________________

A government that’s run amok

It's citizens will surely fok.

Rational Nation USA said...

You may feel free to e-mail me anytime Dave, I promise to reply.

Answer in order of sequence - 1) Not to my knowledge, 2) Ditto 1

I am trying to understand the mindset of people more liberal than me as well.

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

RN: “ I am trying to understand the mindset of people more liberal than me as well.

This is a fair and reasonable question to ask, so I’ll give it my best shot.

I recall in previous years the various comment exchanges we have had. Most recently, I pointed out the root words of “liberal,” “libertarian,” and “liberty” to suggest that our goals are essentially similar, although our methods are often subject to disagreement.

Perhaps a year ago or more, I presented an argument in favor of government regulations – a subject that often divides us. I asked during that discussion whether or not you favor the dismantling of regulations that protect the safety of our food and water supply, of anti-trust laws that keep commerce safe from predators, of securities laws that punish insider-trading and other abuses, as examples.

You seemed to agree that some regulations are necessary. The ideal of a totally free laissez faire system is impossible because there are always scoundrels who would cheat the system and deprive others of full equality under law. Are we good so far?

As you and the Misses approach retirement, I am sure these are important to you: Social Security and Medicare. Do you consider these to be “earned benefits” on the basis of your having made payroll deductions during your entire working life? Or do you see these are “entitlements” as if Social Security were somehow morally akin to welfare and food stamps?

See, when you look at an issue in terms of “enlightened self-interest,” it changes your viewpoint.

Same for voting rights. Years ago, I recall a proposal that would establish a national ID card, which people far more conservative than you rejected as “communism and totalitarianism.” Why the double standard all of a sudden? Perhaps the concept of “voter fraud” is merely political spin designed to mask a more sinister motive.

Certainly, statistics suggest the existence of such a sinister motive: Perhaps as many as 4 or 5 million potential voters disenfranchised just to prevent a handful of cases (as in less than 9 cases per year across the entire country). Do you smell the rat yet?

The rat lies here: In the state of Wisconsin alone, voter registration hours were lengthened in Republican districts and shortened in Democratic districts. This is a fact. Now do you smell the rat?

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

An afterthought to my earlier comment:

While it may not hurt the feelings of our Republican friends if Democrats lost at the polls due to election chicanery, consider this:

Nothing stays in stasis forever. Once you establish election chicanery as standard operating procedure, it metastasizes cancer-like through the entire system. Today it may be Republicans doing this to Democrats; tomorrow it may be the reverse.

This year, I am writing a book on voter suppression. I have interviewed canvassing commissioners of both parties, Democrat and Republican. There is no daylight between them on how to run a fair and honest election.

Governors and state legislatures are another story; they are notoriously partisan, self-serving, and frankly corrupt.

For example, the governor of my state (Florida) ordered the purge of approximately 180,000 names from a list circulated last year. Canvassing commissioners, both Democrat and Republican, examined these lists and found them to be bogus. Not even one name was found to be suspicious or fraudulent.

How can you have full faith and confidence in the legitimacy of the system when election results are rigged along party lines! The question is rhetorical: You can’t.

There are powerful self-serving interests that don’t want you to vote – a subject saved for a later discussion.

Shaw Kenawe said...

(O)CT(O)PUS,

Thanks for your two enlightening comments.

On smelling a rat:

The rat lies here: In the state of Wisconsin alone, voter registration hours were lengthened in Republican districts and shortened in Democratic districts. This is a fact. Now do you smell the rat?'

Why the conservatives in this country don't want to fact this awful fact is quite telling.

If Democratic governors in Democratic states were doing this to GOP-leaning voters, we would be at Civil War II by now.

Jerry Critter said...

"
If Democratic governors in Democratic states were doing this to GOP-leaning voters, we would be at Civil War II by now."

It is disheartening that the Democrats are not starting Civil War II over it. Are they unconcerned or complacent?

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

Jerry,

I regret having to inform you of this: Democrats are afraid of Republicans. Yes, scared stiff. That is why Dems are sooo milksop chicken shit in the face of overwhelming pandering and demagoguery - and deserving of our ridicule and scorn.

BTW, my co-author on this project is this person, the one holding a ballot during the Florida recount in Election Year 2000. Yes, this hanging chad official who made news that year is a personal friend of mine.

Rational Nation USA said...

(O)CT(O)PUS... Your two comments were well stated, thoughtful, and logically sound. Not that I am one to judge your logic as it is superior to my own.

(O)CT(O)PUS said... "Perhaps a year ago or more, I presented an argument in favor of government regulations – a subject that often divides us. I asked during that discussion whether or not you favor the dismantling of regulations that protect the safety of our food and water supply, of anti-trust laws that keep commerce safe from predators, of securities laws that punish insider-trading and other abuses, as examples.

You seemed to agree that some regulations are necessary. The ideal of a totally free laissez faire system is impossible because there are always scoundrels who would cheat the system and deprive others of full equality under law. Are we good so far?"

Yes we are, it is indeed a fair and accurate representation.

(O)CT(O)PUS said... "As you and the Misses approach retirement, I am sure these are important to you: Social Security and Medicare. Do you consider these to be “earned benefits” on the basis of your having made payroll deductions during your entire working life? Or do you see these are “entitlements” as if Social Security were somehow morally akin to welfare and food stamps?"

Actually I have always saw Social Security as am earned right. In as much as individuals pay into the government mandated Social Security System it then becomes our right, "at least to the extent we have contributed to the system, to take from it that amount. The government mandated contribution from employers is something that has always bothered me. For the self employed the contribution is a double whammy so to speak. And then there are those who are not required to pay SS because they are covered by a better government retirement plan.

If given the choice when I was 16 to invest the portion of my hard earned money that went to social security wisely I would be by far more comfortable in retirement than I will be when I retire.

I accept it is the way it is, I even understand why FDR was driven to do what he did, and if the system would have been managed as it was initially sold to the public the nation would have a lower unfunded liability than it does.

My argument has essentially always been that there is a better way to help people to secure their future. But I acknowledge that even that would require some government regulation and oversight and there is the issue of those who are unable to work and earn even for the present let alone the future.

Perhaps there are sinister motives, and frankly both parties are likely guilty (or quilty) of it. This issue of voter fraud will hanging around for some time methinks. It gives me a headache.

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

RN,

Thank you for your reply ... also fair, reasonable, sincere and logical ... and very appreciated.

It appears we have lost an essential part of our political process these past few years - the fine art of compromise and consensus that was built into our system of government by the Founders. What we have today is a system of brinksmanship and hostage-taking; and the middle class is taking it on the chin.

I would like to continue this discussion but unfortunately I am suffering some serious time constraints. It's hard to blog and write a book at the same.

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

Another quick afterthought:

RN: "both parties are likely guilty (or quilty) of it. This issue of voter fraud will hanging around for some time methinks."

Confirmed. Both parties are guilty; this year, however, the GOP is far more guilty than the Dems.

With regards to voter fraud hanging around for awhile, the issue isn't voter fraud but voter suppression; and the reason why I am writing this book (out of my comfort zone to confess) is to shed a spotlight on the problem.

Rational Nation USA said...

I look forward to reading your book when it is published.