Paul Revere by Cyrus Dallin, North End, Boston





Saturday, August 22, 2009


Author and Blogger Joe Bageant:

"There ain't any healthcare debate going on, Bubba. What is going on are mob negotiations about insurance, and which mob gets the biggest chunk of the dough, be it our taxpayer dough or the geet that isn't in ole Jim's impoverished purse. The hoo-ha is about the insurance racket, not the delivery of healthcare to human beings. It's simply another form of extorting the people regarding a fundamental need -- health.

Unfortunately, the people have been mesmerized by our theater state's purposefully distracting and dramatic media productions for so long they've been mutated toward helplessness. Consequently, they are incapable of asking themselves a simple question: If insurance corporation profits are one third of the cost of healthcare, and all insurance corporations do is deliver our money to healthcare providers for us (or actually, do everything in their power to keep the money for themselves), why do we need insurance companies at all? Answer: Because Wall Street gets a big piece of the action. And nobody messes with the Wall Street Mob (as the bailout extortion money proved). Better (and worse) presidents have tried. Some made a genuine effort to push it through Congress. Others expressed the desire publicly, but after getting privately muscled by the healthcare industry, decided to back off from the idea. For instance:

  • Franklin Roosevelt wanted universal healthcare.
  • Harry Truman wanted universal healthcare.
  • Dwight Eisenhower wanted universal healthcare.
  • Richard Nixon wanted universal healthcare.
  • Lyndon Johnson wanted universal healthcare.
  • Bill Clinton wanted -- well we can't definitely say because he made sure that if the issue blew up on him, which it did, Hillary would be left holding the turd."

"Every nation in the world is now party to at least one treaty that addresses health as a human right, including the conditions necessary for the delivery of health services. Healthcare is a right under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Hell, even Saddam Hussein provided healthcare.

That Americans cannot grasp this fundamental aspect of human rights (but then we cannot even get child nutrition, or limiting the number of times you can taser an old lady in an airport, out of the starting gate) and join the civilized world and assure its people of such things is testimony. Testimony that we live in a vacuum exclusive of the accepted standard of mercy and decency common to civilized democratic nations elsewhere. Testimony that even we the citizenry would rather maintain and spread lies than accept truths such as most people in countries with universal healthcare would not ever give it up in favor of the U.S. system."

"...we live under an induced mass hallucination where spectacle replaces fact, information and common sense. In place of actionable information, we are served up screaming red faces -- angry mobs manufactured for TV protesting "government interference in the people's healthcare choices." One must wonder what inchoate anger is really being tapped by the organizers of these strange "citizen protests." As usual, the straw boogeyman of socialism is once more invoked. "Oh my god! I'll have to give up my $1,100 a month insurance bill, which only pays 80% of my insurance costs AFTER I pay the initial $5,000 of those costs! If that ain't Joe Stalin all over again, I don't know what is!" We get the false media drama of 'death panels.'"


TRUTH 101 said...

How does one speak rationally, and expect whom he is speaking to act rationally, when he is is being spoken to can only answer with the word "socialism"?

I'm not worried abou the direction our Nation heads when and if we all finally realize universal health care is good for consumers and business. I'm worried as hell that mindless fools who can only shout down anything the Dick Armeys and Glenn Becks of the world tell them to. It worries me that a group of people, at least a 20% of them have no health insurance, and another 30% are on some form of government plan like Medicare, can get all the meia attention it wants. And delay implementation of this or any other program that benefits America by simply shouting the word "socialism."

These are the people that we need to be afraid of. These are the people that would take our Nation down the path of totalitarianism. And they don't even realize they are doing it.

TAO said...

Its not socialism that I worry about its stupidity that is the greatest evil this country faces...

When you actually believe that Sarah Palin could hold her own in a debate against Barack Obama..

Whew! That's a stretch....

Timethief said...
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Ruth said...

Thanks for the illustration of total myth that the wingnut faction uses instead of facts, Timethief, the stuff that the reality TV crowd is most comfortable with.

Anonymous said...
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Gordon said...

Well, TimeThief is as least as factual and evidential as the guy who wrote the original post.

Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...

Well, I can't say a whole lot about Joe Bageant's rant, but I am trying to keep the faith by realizing that most people want a change in health care. You have the extremes that think everything is honky dory, but I am not one of them. I've thrown out a lot of ideas, some good, some bad, but at least they are something. It bothers me that republicans aren't contributing their share. Why does it have to be all or nothing though. If the majority of people don't want Obama's plan, why can't he take it off the table and try and figure out what the people want, the same people that he is supposed to be representing. TAO mentioned a Swiss plan, and when I get a free moment, I want to look into that more and see what is involved in that.

Oh by the way, I blogrolled you. I've been meaning to do that because every time I come here I have to go to Pam's blog and get the link. It was definitely a Duh moment, but I don't have an excuse because I don't drink coffee! :-)

Arthurstone said...

Factual & evidential?

Come on Gordon.

Wait. You're joking.


More exaggerations and hysteria from Timeflyer.

Arthurstone said...

Sorry. Time Thief rather.

Good to see that high school recollection from 40 years ago remains clear. Doesn't seem to have added to the mix since.

James' Muse said...

Shaw, no matter what you do, you keep getting Trolls!

Sane Blogger:
"Let's talk about healthcare."

"Obama isn't a citizen!"

And then they wonder why they get lambasted later.

Shaw Kenawe said...

I want a prez who is an American citizen before he is a citizen of the world.--Timethief

Timethief, you're completely off subject, and you're using my blog as a forum to rant. My comment policy asks people who visit here not to do that.

When I got to the above-quoted sentence, I knew I was reading a Birther rant, so I read no further.

You've nothing useful to contribute here except repeated lies, distortions and claptrap.

Please use your regular conservative blogs to deposit your unhappy, paranoid thoughts.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Anonymous said...
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TRUTH 101 said...

Damn right Matt! Thank God Clinton was President when welfare was reformed and we got a load of freeloaders off it. That's why we need to elect republicans cause they get the moochers off welfare and, uh, oh, oops. Excuse me. Clinton was a Democrat.

Michael said...

Well, Matt, I assume you are also in favor of ending the VA system and cancelling Medicare.

See how far that gets you.

I forget where I saw it, but the only reason insurance companies come to the table is to take money off of it. THEY are the waste in the health care system.

Shaw Kenawe said...

However, I do not want government coming to me and forcing me to "share" with the guy next door who sat home all day and played video games.

Matt, really, you're not aware that the federal government has been doing this for years? The federal government takes your tax dollars and redistributes them to other states that do not earn as much.

How can you possibly say what you said above. I'm shocked you're so unaware of how the system works.

Go here and get yourself educated.

You'll learn that the liberal blue states give more tax dollars to the federal government who, in turn, redistributes them to the poorer red states.

Anonymous said...
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Shaw Kenawe said...

"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid."--Benjamin Franklin

Shaw Kenawe said...

Matt Rose said...
Jim Jones was a hero to American leftists. Jones orchestrated the killings of 918 people and strangely morphed in the eyes of American leftists into an evangelical Christian fanatic.
He was able to convince this gang of Liberal Zombies to "Drink the Kool-aide" actually it was Fla-Vor-Aid.
Jim Jones was know to be called the prince of 'Fascist America' and drifted rapidly toward outspoken Communist sympathies.
Our friends at Progressive Eruptions with Shaw Kenawe as their Jim Jones and Truth101 as one of her loyal followers have taken over that position.

August 23, 2009 4:31 AM

That comment was posted by Matt Rose on an hilariously puerile blog that was set up strictly for the purpose of smearing and bashing liberals, with particular emphasis on TRUTH 101, The Swash Zone, and me.

If there is a more juvenile and pissy pants way to deal with people you can't intelligently argue with, I haven't seen it yet.

Sadly, for these frightened children, the way to deal with their tragic inadequacies is to giddily fling their poo and spit-up at the grown-ups behind their backs.

This form of "flipping-the-bird" at one's betters behind their backs is typical adolescent behavior, borne of seething frustration with fact that they are powerless to deal with adult arguments, adult logic, and adult behavior.

The cowardly worm who set up this blog will not allow me to rebut the smears and lies that are posted in its public forum by the developmentally challenged who eagerly participate in the invidious rantings.

In the end, it is important for us liberals to understand how the unbalanced radical fringe works:

When they have only irrational things to say, they attack only the rational.

Anonymous said...
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Shaw Kenawe said...
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Shaw Kenawe said...

No, Matt Rose, it is not true. The name of this blog is not "Bash and Smear Conservatives." The blog where people cowardly bash me and TRUTH behind our backs was set up strictly to demean and libel liberals.

But I don't expect you to understand the difference, that would take some rational thinking on your part.

Please go to the bashing blog and fling your poo there. If you can't contribute anything more than mewling complaints here, don't come back.

Thank you for your cooperation.

LYNNE said...

The conservative's are a bunch are cowards Shaw, and you can blame your friends over at Pam’s Oracular Opinion for the horrific anti Liberal blog.

Anonymous said...
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Shaw Kenawe said...

I don't blame Pam.

Some of the more mentally unbalanced commenters at her blog continued to hijack her threads, and they turned into virtual soapboxes for slandering me.

By letting some motley-minded malt-worm set up this bashing blog, the worst of the worst slithered over to it and have finally found a perfect spot to reinforce their hatreds, fears, and stupidities.

I can now comment at Pam's blog without having to tolerate the idiots.

Shaw Kenawe said...

Matt, I still have your comments saved, and I could repost them if I choose to.

They're just not worth anyone's time to read them, so I won't.

thaddius said...

In reference to your "Evil, Evil Woman Yells ‘Heil Hitler’ At Jewish Guy Defending Israel’s Health Care System" Blog where you didn't have any comment section. I'd like to say this:

Let this be a lesson that these conservative town halls have brought out a lot of sickos like this woman. On the other hand, I'm suspect of a man who defends universal health care by using Israel as an example since many other countries have a universal health care plan that is better. It strikes me that he had a hidden agenda, though this in no way excuses the woman's outburst. Is anyone else tired of hearing about these kind of outbursts at town halls? Frankly, I don't see the purpose of continuing to hold town halls if most of the are an exercise in barbarism. The concervitives are showing their ignorance by this sort of display.
The unbelievable ignorance of this woman is just more of the same disgusting crap that keeps coming from the brainless idiotic right wing of this country! Shameless and stupid is no way to go thru life! Hatred and a lack of curiosity is a very dangerous combination.
It’s getting uglier by the minute and racist mongers like Rush, Hannity, Beck, and O’Reilly are taking advantage, and playing on the simple minded, low educated, individuals fear, with utter lies and misinformation. These ignorant conservatives who portray Obama as anti-Israel are smear-mongers who serve to constructive purpose in American political life. photo

I'll say it again, this anti-Obama-everything is rooted in deep-seated racism. These people are not pro-America, they are anti-Democracy, in favor of a one-party system and they hate meaningful discussion for fear they could not support themselves with facts. These people don't want discussion, they want civil war. A black man became president and their world has collapsed as a result.

Anonymous said...

shaw, re that blog for bashing and smearing liberals is actually useful for those extremists who cannot stand to see anyone but their ilk win an argument. that's why they don't allow you to counter their lies. don't waste your time talking or dealing with trash like them. you're better than they are and that's what is eating at their wormy little brains.

TRUTH 101 said...

Let's not be too rough on poor Matt Shaw. He strikes me as a very lonely guy. What better way to make friends that bash you and me? In three days of posting nonsense here and Pamela's blog, a roghty can get 50 followers. Don't begrudge the poor guy for wanting friends. Pity him. Work for universal health care with pscychiatric care covered that this poor lonely man can get the help he needs.

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

Shaw: "I don't blame Pam. "

Actually, I do, and my issue here is as fundamental as asking: “Do we really have a democracy anymore?”

In a democracy, one can't control people by means of force, so you invent ways to control their minds. Long ago, advertisers learned ways to create demand for the superficial things in life, i.e., fancied wants and invented needs. These days, politicians know how to create the "virus effect" that propagates lies and enlists the fervor of malcontents and misfits to derail an honest debate.

When this happens, is this democracy? Or is this what Joseph Goebbels had in mind when he said:

"It would not be impossible to prove with sufficient repetition and a psychological understanding of the people concerned that a square is in fact a circle."

Civility is not merely about refraining from personal, ad hominem, attacks upon a person but a tacit understanding that one is at least having an honest debate. It is reasonable to raise these concerns when one sees dissembling in words and a deliberate repetition of “circle” to describe a “square.” It raises eyebrows. It makes one wonder if the duplicity of logic masks duplicity of intent.

One need look no further than the preoccupations of conservative blogs for the past week: Non-stop character assassination and trashing of liberal bloggers BY NAME, and NO discussion of issues or news headlined within the same time frame.

This is just a superficial game played by oppositional defiant children. Mature and honest adults with a vested interest in democracy don’t act that way.

LYNNE said...

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

Shaw: "I don't blame Pam. "

"Actually, I do"

And so do I!

Anonymous said...

Shaw, Sorry to get off topic but I feel the need to step in here. If you feel this is inappropriate you may delete it but I can't keep letting him throw these jabs without calling him on it.

Octopus, you may have not mentioned anyone by name but you have repeatedly at, James, Swash Zone, and Shaw's criticized your so called former "colleagues". You criticize us for not posting on something YOU feel is important. You then criticized Pam for not controlling those on her blog but have no problem letting me and Pam get put down on YOUR blog. That is the epitome of hypocrisy. You keep talking about "splitting", but apparently it is you that is having problems letting go.

I just can't help but wonder why it's okay for people on your blogs to call people's names and yet you blame Pam for doing the same thing.
What was said to her regarding Hitler was unexcusable and yet I don't see you condemning it. It is shocking, especially knowing how sensitive you are about it.


"Probably good advice to be taken by everyone. Some background: Last week, there was a falling out by certain bloggers from this side and certain bloggers from the other side. My response was to go about my business ... write an article on healthcare reform ... move on.

The other side, however, has been a bit more preoccupied. They have been bashing Shaw and myself and Captain Fogg for almost a week. So what's going on with them?

They can't handle rejection, for one. It seems rejection or abandonment triggers a rage reaction, and then they fall into the trap of "all-or-nothing-thinking." Before the falling out, they understood the continuum of human viewpoints and merely tolerated us. After a rejection, it seems, they consider us as devils. This phenomenon is known as "splitting," a defense mechanism."

"Rage is their pastime. I could care less what they say. I am too busy to bother. One minute spent preoccupied with their ravings is a minute of your own life wasted that you never get back."

"Please notice, I cleaned up our link list. The Oracular Over-Opinionated and Under-Educated has been removed."

"Rocky, you have more patience that Octopus, and I am not referring to the formidable size of the document. I refer to the bad faith behavior of our so-called conservative 'friends' who are reciting the same script as the town hall hooligans. Earlier today, I left these stats, properly attributed, under Pamela's post on healthcare:"

This incident, and the appearance of guns at town hall meetings, are meant to intimidate and silence people. It also exposes a sad fact: This "freedom to dissemble" is bringing out the worst elements ... racists, bigots, anti-Semites, white supremacists, and the latent violence of extremist groups.

I don't hear or read any condemnations of these behaviors from colleagues on the right. As the saying goes, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." As former President Bush used to say: "You are either with us or with the terrorists." And I say: "Either you condemn this uncivil behavior or you are part of it."

"If former colleagues on the right fail to speak up and condemn this stuff, then I have no more reason to trust them."
Does this sound familiar? Does this really look like you have been going about your business?

Again, Shaw I am sorry to use your blog this way, but I needed to post the truth.

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

In response to Jennifer’s comment (above), if one performs a simple word count comparing how many words I expend on this subject versus how many words Jennifer and Pamela have used, the stats are:

Jennifer’s post on “What do you post about ... and why?” Total words: 790

Pamela’s post on “Show us The Way Oh Wise Left Ones.” Total word count: 506

Pamela’s comments under the above post where she bashes liberals in general and Swash Zone in specific, total word count: 1,476

Jennifer’s comments under the above post where she bashes liberals in general and Swash Zone in specific, total word count: 264.

Total number of words used by Octopus in response to the above: 365

Thus, Jennifer and Pamela wrote 3,036 words in tandem on the subject versus Octopus who wrote a mere 365 words. That is almost a 10:1 ratio !!!

Pamela takes Captain Fogg to task for a comment written during the week of May 1, 2009. Since that time, almost 4 months have elapsed. Only last week does Pamela voice an objection; yet Pamela has visited the Swash Zone numerous times since that exchange.

In a recent comment thread, I voiced an objection about the rough treatment of Shaw by Pamela’s followers. In response, Pamela took me to task for not communicating my concerns to her via private e-mail. That is rich. At no point did Pamela ever communicate her concerns to me about any SW bloggers via private e-mail. In fact, Pamela never responded to the one e-mail I did send her some months ago. Talk about a self-serving inconsistency (thus avoiding use of the much stronger word, “hypocrisy”).

For almost a year, I defended Jennifer against vicious personal assaults from bloggers on the left and the right, and I feel quite betrayed by her attitude. In fact, Jennifer was also rude to a Zone blogger who felt offended and deleted her comments.

There is a tacit understanding about e-mail. These kinds of communications are considered private, privileged, and confidential. Yet, Jennifer did violate the confidentiality of one at least one e-mail between us by divulging its contents in a public forum without my permission, thus betraying my trust a second time.

Furthermore, one of Pamela’s cohorts is now sending me “unwelcome” e-mail.

Thus, I have no interest in engaging any of these people in further conversation, and they can bellow all they want. This ends here.

Anonymous said...

Total word cannot possibly be serious! You said your share as did we, the number of posts and words has nothing to do with anything and to try and take the high road here, doesn't work. A post has more comments so that makes us more wrong? Sorry, that is not even a rational argument. I won't deny that I haven't played a part in this feud between us, but that doesn't excuse you from your part. I'm not perfect and have always worn my heart on my sleeve. Maybe I should be like other and not give a crap but that is just not who I am.

Our emails have ALWAYS been private, I have no idea what you are talking about. We've exchanged many emails and they have always stayed there.

You did defend me and I have NEVER forgotten that. I have ALWAYS acknowledged that! I really thought we were friends and this has been very hurtful.

I was rude to Swash Zone? I gave my opinion and was ripped into. I feel betrayed by you, because you didn't feel it necessary to stick up for me.

I'm not going to do this anymore. You feel betrayed, so do I! You are hurt and so am I. We can sit here going back and forth till we are blue in the face, but that won't change anything. We've destroyed a friendship and that is sad. There is no going back and undoing what was done. We can only move forward and that is what I am going to do. You are right, it does end here and now!

Humble Pie, Is a bit too rich for my taste. said...
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