Paul Revere by Cyrus Dallin, North End, Boston

~~~

~~~

Tuesday, September 3, 2013

Guess Who Said It








The rich should pay "their fair share."


"We're going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that have allowed some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying 10 percent of his salary, and that's crazy."


It's time we stopped it. What we're trying to move against is institutionalized unfairness. We want to see that everyone pays their fair share, and no one gets a free ride."



The rich shouldn't be able to take advantage of the tax system:

"Our reasons? It's good for society when we all know that no one is manipulating the system to their advantage because they're rich and powerful."


The rich ought to pay more:


"The President. Do you think the millionaire ought to pay more in taxes than the bus driver or less? 

Audience. More!"


The community organizer says "It takes a village:"


"There's an old American tradition called house-raising, the pioneers out West would get together and build each other's houses. That was a long time ago, but it's still going on. Every time someone helps a lonely old man or woman in a shelter for the poor, that's a house-raising. Every time someone volunteers their time or money to raise funds for the local library, that's a house-raising. Every time a community gets together and says something like, "We're going to turn Northside High into one of the greatest schools in Georgia," that's house-raising."

"...I wish you a nation where the house-raising continues. And somehow, looking out at all of you, I suspect we have nothing to worry about. I have this feeling the helping and house-raising will continue." 




******************************



Reversing the inequality trend:



"For over a decade, working Americans have seen their wages and incomes stagnate, even as corporate profits soar and the pay of a fortunate few explodes. For even longer than that, inequality has steadily risen; the journey of upward mobility has become harder. And in too many communities across this country, the shadow of poverty continues to cast a pall over our fellow citizens.

Reversing that trend needs to be Washington’s highest priority. It’s certainly mine. That’s why, over the past month, I’ve traveled all across America, laying out my ideas for how we can build on the cornerstones of what it means to be middle class. A good job that pays a good wage. A good education. A home of your own. Health care when you get sick. A secure retirement even if you’re not rich. And more chances for folks to earn their way into the middle class as long as they’re willing to work for it."


**************************


The first quoted text was from President Ronald Reagan's commencement speech to a high school in Georgia.  That's the one where he goes after the wealthy for not paying their "fair share."  

Will we hear the screaming nuts on the right yell COMMIE!?  That's their default slander each time our current president (or a liberal) points out the massive inequality Americans suffer under the present tax system.  That's what they shout when any liberal suggests the rich are not paying their "fair share."  

Reagan would be labeled a "Commie" today if he were alive and had given that same speech, especially if the idiot Jim Hoft blogged about it.


The second text quoted was from President Obama's Labor Day speech in which he talked about opportunities that would help the middle class and the poor, AS LONG AS THEY ARE WILLING TO WORK FOR THEM.





The Stupidest Man on the Internet, Jim Hoft, reacting to President Obama's Labor Day speech: 

 “How a President of a free nation can seemingly promise a job with good pay, healthcare, a home and retirement while keeping a straight face knowing that it is not within his power to provide such things, is beyond me. 

In order for the President to come through on that Christmas list of goodies he would have to fundamentally transform the nation into Communism so that everything would be owned by the Government and therefore distributed 'equally' to every citizen."



Jim Hoft of Gateway Pundit is very popular on the right. And one can see why.  He's an idiot who is wrong so often that he's been given the title "The Stupidist/Dumbest Man on the Internet."  It doesn't take a genius to see how incompetently he interpreted President Obama's Labor Day remarks.  He obviously didn't read them carefully; he only saw that President Obama expressed those ideas, so he knee-jerkedly screamed COMMUNIST!

That's where the GOP is today.  Anything the president [or a liberal] says is shouted down by their default angry epithet, COMMIE! 

They have no ideas, they have no reading comprehension, they have only one reaction to anything President Obama says.


"According to the right, The American Dream is a promise of communism for all when it is spoken of by Obama. President Obama wasn’t saying that he was going to give anyone anything. He was speaking about building a stronger economy that will allow more Americans to become a part of the middle class. I guess economic opportunity earned through hard work is also a form of communism."  --Jason Easley, Politicus USA

54 comments:

George Whyte said...

You mean like these found over at a con blog?

"Americans" go for it because the majority of input they receive comes from a corrupt public education system and totally corrupt media which is in total servitude to the communist democrats."

"I believe the commies/dems killed JFK."

"it's been the communist agenda since they killed JFK.
remove patriotism
kill the family unit
get the women working
take over the schools
take over the major elements of an economic system like energy and transportation.
take over social media and The media.
now it's take over medical care.
what next - food and oxygen via federal brownie points?"


Yep. See above. If those remarks seem like a parody of an idiot con, they're not. Someone actually believes that crap and others nod their heads in agreement. That's how crazy they are.

They see commies everywhere.

George Whyte said...

I forgot to add these gems:


"You know, we all gripe about what a horror our education system is, and I think most of us have no more than a slight understanding of how bad it really is. Yes, it is true that 75% of the teachers are rabid communists or enablers.


Congratulations vile communists and stupid parents!"


Dervish Sanders said...

I've heard the audio clip of that speech by Reagan before, as Thom Hartmann has played it on more than one occasion. I also recommend this one from 1948 when Reagan was a Democrat.

Excerpt...

Higher prices have not been caused by higher wages, but by bigger and bigger profits...

This a speech in which Reagan rails against the greed of corporations, speaks about the limitations of the free market and against Republican laws limiting the ability of workers to unionize. Early in his political career Reagan was a good Democrat. What happened?

We need new faces in Congress... Democratic faces.

True in 1948 and true today.

Rational Nation USA said...

Reagan told the whole nation what happened with the split. Ya must have missed that one. Basically it was because of dudes like you.

FreeThinke said...

A few people grow up, but most merely grow older.

Fortunately, Ronald Reagan belonged to the former category -- always a relatively small percentage of the population that, very sadly, has been decreasing exponentially as socialistic, collectivist practices have gradually come to dominate public policy.

Did you know that the average IQ of American citizens has DECLINED by nearly FIFTEEN PERCENT in the past one-hundred years?

Also INFLATION has increased so severely over the same period of time that it takes about a THOUSAND dollars in 20013 to purchase what you could buy for about TEN dollars in 1900.

You may quibble about the strict accuracy of those figures, and go to town playing that silly game, but the SENSE of the observation is perfectly true.

Thanks to unionism and progressive economic policies the average person may have far more money at his disposal than he ever dreamt possible in 1900, HOWEVER, the VALUE or "PURCHASING POWER" of each dollar has shrunk to abysmal levels.

Every time unions demand and get a raise or an increase in benefits, the increased cost is passed on to the consumer. These increased costs of production and consumption are then TAXED at increasingly higher rates -- a process necessary to cover the cost of an increasingly intrusive, increasingly powerful, increasingly demanding government who must ADMINISTER the results of all this "PROGRESS."

The Pennsylvania Dutch have quaint expression that perfectly describes the situation:

The farther ahead I go, the behinder I get."

I have anticipated the torrent of accusatory rhetoric attacking the "unconscionable greed" on the part of highly placed executives and boards of directors. That admittedly unworthy phenomenon is part and parcel of the SAME money grubbing mentality.

When our highest goals become merely SELF-SERVING, it weakens society at every conceivable level.

FreeThinke said...




___ The Deficiency of Deficit Financing ___


We may be likened unto snakes

Who when their bodies ail

Feel prompted to relieve their aches

By chewing on their tail.

But though that will not ease their pain

They chew, yet fail to thrive,

Till by the terms of this murrain

They cease to be alive.


~ FreeThinke

FreeThinke said...

________ OBJECT LESSON ________

Where everyone lives on the Dole,
And I don't mean RINO Bob,
Who’s just a lackey to Those Who Rob.
I'm talkin' 'bout The Oligarchs,
Whose money once created parks
And enhanced universities,
Built hospitals to fight disease, 
Palaces where Opera's housed --
Places at which no one's groused,
Libraries and Railroad Stations
Fit for endless celebrations,
Until that old New Deal was struck.
That changed the rules and killed good luck.
Since then "The Rich," forced to connive
To find a way they might survive,
Have joined with Statists to despise,
Deter, discourage those who'd rise.
We call it Crony Capitalism,
And it has caused the mammoth schism
Yawning now twixt rich and poor,
'Cause we let Marxists in the door.


~ FreeThinke

COMMUNISM KILLS.
IT CANNOT CURE OUR ILLS!

skudrunner said...

I do find it interesting that you have such high regard for Reagan. If we only had someone with his vision today maybe we would have a better employment situation, more pride in America and respect from the rest of the world.

But instead we have high unemployment, low worker participation, majority of jobs are part time and world leaders who have a great deal of disdain for our country.

At least Michelle is proud of the country for the first time in he life and for that we should be proud.

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

RN: "Reagan told the whole nation what happened with the split. Ya must have missed that one. Basically it was because of dudes like you."

Please elaborate with facts and details and keep it civil (meaning leave out the temptation to engage in partisan sniping).

Dervish Sanders said...

Yes, I must have missed it, RN. I'd ask RN to explain, but I probably wouldn't understand. I think he means I'm too partisan? If that is the case then I must protest. RN is wrong. I'm a Democrat and Democrats believe in compromise. The partisan split is NOT due to "dudes" like me.

I think it is because of dudes like RN. It's the infection of the Republican Party by the Randian belief that most of us in the lower and middle class are "parasites" and "leeches" that has caused them to go off the deep end and support budgets (Paul Ryan) that seek to "end Medicare as we know it" or tax cuts for the "job creators" like Romney (Mr. 47 percent).

Blaming poor and working class people for the state of our economy (by labeling them "Takers" and 47 percent moochers) is something the American people rejected in the last election. Obama won and the onus is on the Republicans to work with the Democrats for the good of the country... instead of plotting against us (the Democrats AND the country).

Shaw Kenawe said...

"Blogger skudrunner said...
I do find it interesting that you have such high regard for Reagan."

I find it interesting that you wrote the above, since I've not stated it anywhere. Quoting what someone said in a speech does not necessarily mean I have a high regard for the person making the statement. I quoted Reagan so that you and others can see that he would be mocked, scorned, and labeled a "Commie" by today's GOP for saying what he said. Unless of course he was just pandering to those graduating students, in which case he'd bee seen as a hack.



skud: "If we only had someone with his vision today maybe we would have a better employment situation, more pride in America and respect from the rest of the world."

If only we had a Republican Party that did not think "compromise" is a dirty word, and whose only objective in the last 5 1/2 years has been 1) to make President Obama a 1-term president (FAIL!), AND 2) to obstruct any initiative he makes for creating jobs, etc.



The rest of your comment is the usual FAUX NOOZ talking points that is full of sap and pap and signifying nada.

FT, thanks to unions, America celebrated a holiday yesterday. Attacking unions and working people who belong to them without seeing what the banksters on Wall Street and the corporatists all over the country have done to this country's financial health is ignoring facts. It was THEY not the union workers of America who plunged this country and the world into financial disaster. It was the thieves in the financial markets who have cheated, lied, and stolen and made it harder for Americans to find work.

To ignore this and pretend it never happened is to not see what is in front of your nose.

Also, America is not a communist country. If it were and if Mr. Obama were the tyrant the right makes him out to be, the right and all of its leaders would have been wiped out by now, newspapers shut down, and his opponents thrown in jail.

The folks on the right who howl about Mr. Obama being a tyrant lose all credabilty and open themselves to mockery with such hyperbolic rot.

Mr. Obama was elected by a very comfortable margin TWICE by the American people. It is the TeaPublicans who have obstructed the man and his policies, which THE AMERICAN PEOPLE VOTED FOR!, who are, IMO, tyrannical.



Rational Nation USA said...

Reagan stated he didn't leave the democratic party it left him.

Shaw Kenawe said...

The point is that Reagan was a moderate Republican by today's standards, and would probably be hounded out of the party.

Shaw Kenawe said...

Another example of the tactics today's GOP use to sabotage a perfectly legal program.

Since they couldn't defeat Obama and his health care initiative, they cheat, lie, and take bribes. Yet it is the conservatives who call Mr. Obama a tyrant and a commie? Really?

There is something desperately wrong with them.


"Georgia governor gets paid through secret PAC to obstruct Obamacare

Georgia Gov. Nathan Deal (R)’s family and business partner have been receiving payments from a secret Political Action Committee called Real PAC. Half a million dollars of the money donated to the PAC has come from corporate health care interests which — like the governor and Georgia state Insurance Commissioner Ralph Hudgens — oppose the implementation of the Affordable Care Act (ACA), also known as “Obamacare.”

According to investigative reporter Jim Walls of Atlanta Unfiltered, the PAC hasn’t filed taxes or the required financial disclosures in two years, and the information it did file for 2011 was incorrect."


SOURCE

Dervish Sanders said...

RN: Reagan stated he didn't leave the democratic party it left him.

Nothing more than politician-speak to cover up his massive flip-flop from caring about working folks to caring for the wealthy. Sometimes some of the "old" (and more sane) Reagan came though (as evidenced by the quote provided by Shaw) but he usually carried out (and stuck to) the agenda of the plutocrats (further enrich themselves at the expense of the rest of us). Personally I think Alzheimer's may have had something to do with his radical shift in ideology.

skudrunner said...

Wicked,

I did give you credit for someone else work, sorry about that.

Can you give an example of what bills the republicans are holding up that will create jobs. I have asked that question but no one seems to have an answer.

Maybe another zero job creation trillion dollar stimulus with thousands of shovel ready jobs.

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

Shaw,

This comment is a response to skudrunner who is too lazy, hyper-partisan, and intellectually dishonest to do his own goddam research:

skud: “Can you give an example of what bills the republicans are holding up that will create jobs. I have asked that question but no one seems to have an answer.

Here is a simple Google search string, “job creation bills sponsored by obama,” that returned 141,000,000 results (0.52 seconds), as follows:

GOP senators block top Obama jobs initiative:

Senate Republicans on Thursday blocked the No.1 item on the president's congressional "to-do-list," refusing to allow a vote on a bill that would give tax breaks for companies that "insource" jobs to the U.S. from overseas while eliminating tax deductions for companies that move jobs abroad.

Here is another:

Senate Republicans Block Another Jobs Bill, Face Backlash From American Public:

Well, if the economy recovers too strongly before an election, Republicans will lose power. If jobs numbers look too good, people will want to keep the same party. By Republicans blocking all jobs legislation and keeping jobs numbers from improving they believe this is their ticket to power.”

Yet another:

Senate blocks $60 billion infrastructure plan, another part of Obama jobs bill:

The chamber failed to advance a measure to spend $50 billion on highway, rail, transit and airport improvements and another $10 billion as seed money for an infrastructure bank designed to spark private investment in construction.

Ooops, there goes our crumbling infrastructure, not even a $50 billion down payment on the estimated $1 trillion needed to undertake urgent repairs.

To quote Mike Lofgren, a Republican Congressional staffer who recently left the cult (in disgust over the excesses of his own party):

"The GOP’s thirst for confrontation and crisis is symptomatic of a destructive and nihilistic streak that has overtaken our political system. When one party repudiates the whole concept of compromise, it is inevitable that government will lurch from one crisis to another. Long gone are the days of cautious and prudential conservativism."

This is a Republican talking about his own party, not a Democrat, nor a liberal, nor a commie-socialist as all too many troll-assassins in this sandbox have asserted (without facts, footnotes, or any form of attribution).

Not intending to put you on the spot, Shaw, but endless sniping that accompanies these posts and comments is getting old. Your troll followers are so programmatically obtuse, uniformed, unread, and hyper-partisan, all too often it turns offensive. Sorry, Shaw, but my time is far too valuable to engage this idiot brigade any further.

Shaw Kenawe said...

Thank you, (O)CT(O)PUS for your input and for answering skudrunner's lazy questions. Unfortunately, skudrunner's only contributions here are to whine, repeat TeaPublican talking points, and misrepresent anything from the left.

But what you or anyone else can do to show him and others how utterly wrong he/they is/are, I think, may allow some light into their darkness.

Dervish Sanders said...

Octo: Here is a simple Google search string, "job creation bills sponsored by obama", that returned 141,000,000 results (0.52 seconds), as follows...

I don't think Skuddy actually wants an answer. He posed the same question to me on my blog, and (as I recall) he's asked it here before. It's a rhetorical talking point that he thinks he already knows the answer to (his answer would be none). It isn't a question he actually wants you to answer.

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

Dervish Sanders,
I had no intention of letting that troll get away with bullshit by default.

Here is another piece of bullshit from an arch bullshitter:

FreeThinke: "Did you know that the average IQ of American citizens has DECLINED by nearly FIFTEEN PERCENT in the past one-hundred years?"

My inclination is to rebut this bullshit too as laden with latent bigotry but then stop myself when I consider that Freethinke must be offering up himself as Exhibit Number One.

Rational Nation USA said...

(O)CT(O)PUS... "Not intending to put you on the spot, Shaw, but endless sniping that accompanies these posts and comments is getting old. Your troll followers are so programmatically obtuse, uniformed, unread, and hyper-partisan, all too often it turns offensive. Sorry, Shaw, but my time is far too valuable to engage this idiot brigade any further."

Interesting indeed.

Duckys here said...

Did you know that the average IQ of American citizens has DECLINED by nearly FIFTEEN PERCENT in the past one-hundred years?


-----
The average I.Q. is 100.
I suspect your blowing smoke again, FT.

George Whyte, my professors were pretty liberal but I don't believe they were Communists. In fact I think today's fringe right thinks anyone who believes in a graduated ax is a Commie.

The scale changes, unlike the average I.Q.

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

RN,

Here is the quote again:

FreeThinke: "Did you know that the average IQ of American citizens has DECLINED by nearly FIFTEEN PERCENT in the past one-hundred years?"

My question is this: To what does FreeThinke attribute this alleged decline in national IQ? Is he equating race, ethnicity, or immigration to declines in intelligence?

As an American citizen, regardless of persuasion, I take offense. Perhaps more to the point, I find this statement, not interesting, but very disturbing given historical implications of bigotry and racism.

I am rather shocked (no pun intended - see William Shockley) that this comment went unnoticed.

Incognito said...

Jim Hoft may not be doing much blogging these days. See this information about his health:

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/09/update-on-jim-hoft-2/

life threatening illness

R. Stein said...

maybe the free thinke dude meant this:

"Every dollar cut from the education budget breeds another Republican."

George Whyte said...

Shaw -- you get a ton of free publicity for your blog over at AOW's sandbox. Her fans read you every day and post about you blogging in her comments. You drive them out of their little under-developed minds, like that "Too F***ed Up" idiot who comments over at Dervish Sander's blog.

You're the blogger they love to hate.

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

FreeThinke: "Did you know that the average IQ of American citizens has DECLINED by nearly FIFTEEN PERCENT in the past one-hundred years?"

Shaw: “… [to shed] some light into their darkness.

In which direction does this vector of darkness point?

Whenever I read the words ‘intelligence’ and ‘nationality’ in the same sentence, it reminds me of the darkest pages in history when concepts of ethnic inferiority and eugenics were used to justify slavery, pogroms, ethnic cleansing, and genocide.

How can this kind of troll baiting be ethically and morally justified?

Shaw Kenawe said...

Perhaps FT's stats are not so accurate:

"Are we really getting smarter?
We are, at least in terms of intelligence quotient, or IQ, which is the most broadly used measure of mental ability.

Over the past hundred years or so, raw scores on IQ tests have improved steadily. The phenomenon is known as the Flynn effect, after political scientist James Flynn, who discovered it in the 1980s.

According to his extensive research, IQ test scores in the U.S. increased by an average of three points per decade during the 20th century. IQs themselves have not risen, since the scoring of each new test version is calibrated to assure a mean score of 100, defined as average intelligence.

But if measured on an unadjusted scale, the current generation would have IQs more than 20 points above those of their grandparents­ — or enough to distinguish a "dull normal" from a "bright normal."

The shift is by no means exclusive to the U.S.: Many European countries, as well as Canada, Japan, Israel, China, Australia, and New Zealand, also recorded strong increases in IQ scores over the last century."


The rest of the article, which is contraray to what F.T. wrote is HERE.


And this from Wiki on the "Flynn Effect:"

Rise in IQ

IQ tests are updated periodically. For example, the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children (WISC), originally developed in 1949, was updated in 1974, in 1991, and again in 2003. The revised versions are standardized based on the performance of test-takers in standardization samples. A standard score of IQ 100 is defined as the median performance of the standardization sample. Thus one way to see changes in norms over time is to conduct a study in which the same test-takers take both an old and new version of the same test. Doing so confirms IQ gains over time. Some IQ tests, for example tests used for military draftees in NATO countries in Europe, report raw scores, and those also confirm a trend of rising scores over time. The average rate of increase seems to be about three IQ points per decade in the United States, as scaled by the Wechsler tests. The increasing test performance over time appears on every major test, in every age range, at every ability level, and in every modern industrialized country, although not necessarily at the same rate as in the United States. The increase has been continuous and roughly linear from the earliest days of testing to the present.[9] Though the effect is most associated with IQ increases, a similar effect has been found with increases in attention and of semantic and episodic memory."



F.T. probably got his figures from a site that talked about GLOBAL I.Q.

Shaw Kenawe said...

G.W., I already know that.

If they hate me, then I must be doing a lot right. And the fact that they keep visiting my blog to see what I'm writing about implies they actually respect my opinions. If they didn't they'd ignore me. They don't. Therefore, what I think is very important to them. LOL!


Rational Nation USA said...

I wonder about common sense sometimes and if that is in decline.

Shaw Kenawe said...

Incognito,

I don't wish any harm to Jim Hoft, but his consistent lying and deliberate and nondeliberate misrepresentations cause harm to this country.

skudrunner said...

Dervy,

Create jobs not create handouts.
We come at job creation from different directions.

You believe government handouts are the way to create jobs.

I believe making business easier not harder will result in job creation.

If you worked and if you owned a business you would be aware of the additional regulatory burden that has occurred in the last four years.

The fair tax and elimination of obamacare would do wonders for business and job creation. Problem is the Fair Tax take the punishing power away from the political elite and they will not allow that to happen.

Wicked always points out that I am a tea party advocate and spout opinions from fox news. The fact is she spends far more time tuned to fox than I do, none, and my social opinions are very contrary to the GOP or the tea party. Fiscally both parties are to liberal for me.

Rational Nation USA said...

Yes it would have been proper and advisable for Free Thinke to have provided a link to supporting data. Absent this it is understandable why some would view the comment as you did.

I do not believe Free Thinke is a racist or a bigot and would hope he visits this thread again and responds to your concerns (O)CT(O)PUS. I can not and do not speak for Free Thinke.

FreeThinke said...

Researchers say Western IQs Dropped 14 Points Over Last Century

Yahoo! News ^ | May 24, 2013 | Eric Pfeiffer

Posted on May 26, 2013 11:06:05 PM EDT
A new study from researchers in Europe claims that the average IQ in Western nations dropped by a staggering 14.1 points over the past century.
"We tested the hypothesis that the Victorians were cleverer than modern populations using high-quality instruments, namely measures of simple visual reaction time in a meta-analytic study," the researchers wrote in the study, which was published online in the journal Intelligence on Thursday. "Simple reaction time measures correlate substantially with measures of general intelligence and are considered elementary measures of cognition." ...

The results were measured using data from 1889 to 2004 and were analyzed by Michael A. Woodley of Vrije Universiteit in Brussels, Jan te Nijenhuis of the University of Amsterdam and Raegan Murphy of the University College Cork in Ireland.

So why has there been such a steady drop? As UPI notes, previous research studies have found that women of higher intelligence tend to have fewer children on average, meaning that population growth may be driven by those with a lower IQ. And over time, the abundance of less intelligent offspring would affect the overall IQ average.
On average, the general intelligence of those populations measured dropped by 1.23 points per decade.

"These findings strongly indicate that with respect to general intelligence the Victorians were substantially cleverer than modern Western populations," the study says
.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...

__________________________

Hardly a definitive article, but certainly one that ought to provoke more CURIOSITY than reflexive CONDEMNATION for fear of what it MIGHT imply, or MIGHT be attempting to suggest.

Shaw Kenawe said...

No, RN, common sense is not in decline. That's what all the older generations (and I am included in that category) have always said throughout the ages. It just seems that way because the loud-mouthed know-nothings seem to get all the attention.

FreeThinke said...

In case anyone is interested, here's the link to a far more comprehensive article on the study related to declining IQ in the West:

http://lesacreduprintemps19.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/were-the-victorians-smarter-than-us.pdf

To assume the publication of these findings must be "agenda-driven" does a disservice to your intelligence.

Walt Whitman came up with the perfect motto for all Mankind:

"BE CURIOUS; NOT JUDGMENTAL."

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

Shaw,

The issue I am trying to raise here is not one of bogus facts presented by FT, which you have duly referenced and debunked, but one of motivation – i.e. FT raising reflexively the ugly specter of ‘intelligence versus partisan affiliation’ within the context of this forum.

Either you misunderstand my concerns, or you are avoiding them:

How can this kind of troll baiting be ethically and morally justified?

Shaw Kenawe said...

F.T., I think we've established that your data is for "the West," not for the U.S. specifically, where studies show that I.Q. has NOT declined.

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

A true study controls for random error using measures of statistical validity, such as < p=0.05, a commonly used threshold.

The key term in the study cited by FT is the term ‘meta-analytic study.’ It means researchers HAVE NOT undertaken a formal analysis based upon a commonly accepted research methodology. In other words, this is an uncontrolled, anecdotal study since, presumably, one of the study groups is dead.

When one controls for randomness in a true study, data points that do not conform to a pattern are called statistical outliers. In a meta-analysis, it is the researchers themselves who are outrageous liars. IOW, meta-analysis studies are all too often riddled with researcher bias – they choose a study sample to drive a pre-conceived hypothesis. Why, for instance, are people living in Victorian times used, presumably, as the independent variable? Why not Gilded Age subjects, or those living during WWI, or some other point in time. Meta-analysis studies often make headlines but rarely advance the cause of science.

For the record, while reaction times may correlate with general measures of intelligence; reaction times are not accepted measures of intelligence on widely accepted standard scales such as the Wechsler. For a dead person who lived in Victorian times, a reaction time compared with a living subject under modern conditions would be considered highly suspect.

Curiosity is no virtue when one lacks skills for critical thinking.

Rational Nation USA said...

"For the record, while reaction times may correlate with general measures of intelligence; reaction times are not accepted measures of intelligence on widely accepted standard scales such as the Wechsler."

I would have to agree. In fact quick reaction time to issues can be a severe detriment to good decision making.

I know from my experience as a manager in my prior life. There is is quite often much positive to said for "delayed reaction time", thus giving one time to gather... The facts. "Just the facts Ma'am just the facts."

Dervish Sanders said...

FT: You believe government handouts are the way to create jobs.

I don't. Also, the jobs bills of the Democrats were all handouts? I didn't see any legislation providing for "handouts" on the list of bills blocked by the Repubs that Octopus gave.

FreeThinke said...

Such massive overreaction to a small quotation derived from a scholarly, non-politically-motivated article made in passing as part a general comment indicating possible explanations for the [obvious] decline of Western Civilization over the past hundred years is indicative of extreme paranoia -- a mental disorder that should engender our sympathy, but not our acquiescence.

The tendency to attribute vile motives to whomever attempts to raise points to which the paranoiac is unsympathetic occurs all too frequently everywhere in the blogosphere -- and in more public open forums as well. It is, of course, a blight on the intellectual and spiritual landscape, and -- to put it mildly -- has had a crippling -- even ruinous -- effect on public discourse and the political process

PARANOIA and what-I-would-call Rage Addiction seem to go hand in hand with extreme Egocentrism, Religious Fanaticism and possibly extreme Ethnocentrism.

All belong under the same umbrella and qualify as morbid preoccupation with Negativity combined with a marked tendency to relate everything heard, read and observed to the SELF -- as though that SELF were the only entity in the world worthy of Respect, Consideration and Charity.

There isn't enough time or energy in the world to enable anyone -- no matter how wise, learned, kind-hearted, passionate or well-intentioned -- to ARGUE someone afflicted with paranoia from abandoning the conceit, fears, pet hates, suspicions, prejudices and ancient superstition that separate and alienate him or her from the healthier, happier, more loving and productive elements in society.

So all I can say -- and all I WILL say -- to those who would impugn my motives and character is this:

"HONI SOIT QUI MAL Y PENSE."

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

FT,

A regrettable example of projective identification and amateur pop psychology:

FT: “ The tendency to attribute vile motives to whomever attempts to raise points to which the paranoiac is unsympathetic occurs all too frequently everywhere in the blogosphere -- and in more public open forums as well. It is, of course, a blight on the intellectual and spiritual landscape, and -- to put it mildly -- has had a crippling -- even ruinous -- effect on public discourse and the political process.”

In other words, someone disagreed with you and provided citations and substantiation to support a viewpoint. Yet, you seem to resent having your viewpoint contradicted.

Beyond mere disagreement, you have a tendency to frame your arguments in dire apocalyptic terms and equate liberals and progressives as “lackeys,” “Marxists” and “Communists” - thereby devaluing, denigrating, and heaping contempt by inference upon readers of this forum. More than merely eccentric, your comments are often offensive.

The next time you wake up in the morning, I suggest you look in a mirror at your own reflection.

Projective identification, indeed!

FreeThinke said...

Octo, baby. In plain English. You and all your wretched, noisome your kind ain't worth my time.

Rail away all you like. Given a bit of thought your soliloquies can be most entertaining. I'm sure Ms Shaw will continue to give you unlimited opportunity to reveal your character and disposition to your heart's content.

She's very good in allowing diverse and divergent statements to appear at her blog. If that were not the case, you would not have to put up with me nor I with you.

As the then-Duke of Bedford famously said, sometime back in the 1960's, "If we continue to work hard enough, very soon we will all be able to despise one another.

Shaw Kenawe said...



Mr. Free Thinke, I respect and admire (O)CT(O)PUS. He is highly intelligent and has a wicked sense of humor. Anytime he posts at The Swash Zone, I learn something new. He's been a good friend to me when I was in need, and I shall be forever grateful to him for that and shall remain loyal to him.

(O)CT(O), F.T. and I do not agree on anything political, but we have exchanged many pleasant conversations on music and literature, and that has been informative for me. F.T. was a concert pianist and music teacher. I enjoy his reviews of operatic performers and other musical performances and performers.

I can't make you two like each other. Each of you is unique and each of you are passionate about your political views.

It pains me to the core to see this sort of sniping back and forth between two people who have contributed to my well-being.

I hope it won't continue.





Rational Nation USA said...

Well Shaw, a fine piece of diplomatic excellence. I mean that in all sincerity. It is one reason why you are so popular.

But you already knew that.

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

L’orribile mercato!

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

L’orribile mercato!

FreeThinke said...

Well, (O)CT(O)PUS, I have say one nice thing about you:

I really like your avatar.

And if Ms Shaw likes and respects you, you can't be all that bad.

Remember please, however, that she also likes me, so maybe we should make a greater effort to see the good in one another?

I'm willing if you are.

Cheers!

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

A truce ... (in the manner of Count Palmieri).

Shaw Kenawe said...

As usual, (O)CT(O)PUS delights me with his wit and knowledge.

FreeThinke said...

If you could make the effort to look beyond our obvious surface differences, (O)CT(O)PUS, and try to avoid reading evil intent into everything I choose to report or attempt to analyze, you would find I bear no resemblance whatsoever either to the fictional Scarpia or the historic Napoleon.

I am in every way the enemy of despotism and arbitrary exercise of power.

Like most people I just don't enjoy being vilified for reasons which may on close inspection prove to be largely imaginary.

My sentiments are with Voltaire's all-too-famous statement:

"I may not agree with what you say, but I would defend to the death your right to say it."

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

FreeThinke,
The difference between vous, a humanoid, and moi, a cephalopod: In addition to ink and camouflage, cephalopods have developed a connoisseurs’ appreciation for the littoral meaning of words.

See, humanoids are simple binary creatures that think in terms of dialectics - everything perceived as day or night, raw or cooked, stop or go, black or white with NO subtle shades of grey. In contrast, cephalopods raise perceptions to a higher power, which confers a special and unique advantage.

I view the use of language similarly. When one equates intelligence, ethnicity, and reproduction rates, I think of one William Bradford Shockley, inventor of the transistor, who ventured beyond his subject matter expertise and engaged in bogus speculation - higher reproduction rates among “less intelligent” people leading to a decline in civilization. How often have we encountered such claims in history: White supremacy as justification for enslaving or lynching blacks, Aryan supremacy as justification genocide, Serb supremacy as a rationale for ethnic cleansing, Hutus who murdered Tutsis, etc, etc.

Perhaps you don’t mean what you say. Perhaps the notion of Victorian superiority over post-modern humanoids induces some idyllic or autistic fantasy inside you. If so, fess up.

I'm talkin' 'bout The Oligarchs,
Whose money once created parks
And enhanced universities,
Built hospitals to fight disease,
Palaces where Opera's housed –
Places at which no one's groused,
Libraries and Railroad Stations
Fit for endless celebrations …


You gotta be kidding! Do you honestly believe all public works – parks, universities, hospitals, concert halls, universities, medical research labs, Shakespeare’s plays, Keats’ poems – all masterworks of civilization – are the sole and exclusive province of … jeeze! … oligarchs? You have just insulted ordinary taxpayers everywhere! Or are public works always akin to collectivism in your book?

Perhaps you are familiar with these lines of Shelley:

"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away
."

Perhaps you missed an irony: Did Ozymandias build it single handedly? How about the artisans who designed it? Or the slave laborers who bore the scars of whiplash across their backs?

See, I can wrap my tentacles around words within their historical and cultural context. Can you wrap your amygdala around the inseparability of words and their moral meaning?

It’s the difference between number two raised to the power of one versus two raised to the power three - the difference between a mere biped versus a sublime octoped.

Do you snack on crustaceans, or lack the knack?

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

FreeThinke,
Just in case you misunderstood my last sentence …

Do you snack on crustaceans, or lack the knack?

We consider a shared meal as a form of peace offering. Since my natural habitat precludes my kind from enjoying an open fire or home cooked meal, table etiquette is a simple matter of “snatch-n-crunch.” Nevertheless, we measure fine cuisine by a different standard: What dies in your mouth melts in your mouth, and our taste buds are finely attuned to the five stages of DABDA: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance.

Yummm!