General John Kelly: "He said that, in his opinion, Mr. Trump met the definition of a fascist, would govern like a dictator if allowed, and had no understanding of the Constitution or the concept of rule of law."
Thursday, December 5, 2019
Historic: Trump will be only third president to be impeached.
The speaker said she was instructing House committee chairmen to move forward with articles of impeachment against President Trump, escalating a partisan confrontation that could lead to a vote by Christmas
So... I think Trump is as guilty as they come of using not his, but our office for his personal gain.
With that said, let's move on to impeachment.
It's going to be a mess. Speaker Pelosi and other Dems are on record saying it would be unwise to impeach Pres Trump without Bi-Partisan support. Clearly, we do not have that. We can argue all we want about whether we'd ever get that and the implications of such, but the fact remains, Pelosi made that statement, and has not offered any reason as to why she is disregarding it. Nor have any other Democrats.
The trail will be help in the Senate, under rules dictated by Mitch McConnell. Does anyone think those rules will lean left, favor the Dems, or allow them to call additional fact witnesses? Without additional testimony, which again, McConnell's rules will likely not permit, how do the Dems flip anyone?
Justice Roberts will be bound Constitutionally, by the Senate rules and be unable to call witnesses, allow Dems to do, or enforce subpoenas.
So we are faced with this question... What's the point?
Prof Turley made a good point in that Dems should slow down, and take the Admin to court. But they are terrified by the election clock. Every Senator running for Pres can, I believe, pretty much kiss their chances goodbye. McConnell will be keeping them in the Senate all through the Iowa and NH contests. Their candidacies are effectively dead.
So where's our upside?
The Dems are gonna swing big, but in my opinion, swing and miss, just like Mighty Casey.
What should Dems have done? What should our country have done? How could this have been different?
The upside is not allowing Trump to get away with his crimes. I don't care if the Republicans in the Senate acquit him (they'll go down in history as siding with a corrupt, venal POTUS). To throw our hands up and say "What can we do? This is a deeply partisan situation where the GOPers will side with their POTUS, crimes and all!" -- to do that is to allow any scoundrel or crooked POTUS to claim "I can do whatever I want!," just like Trump did. Do we Americans want to accept that?
Is that what America is about? Have we fallen so far and become so weak that we allow a terrible man like Trump to destroy everything this country stood for here and around the world just because the Republican Party is filled with cowards?
Letting the voters decide in 2020 is too dangerous, since we know what a rogue POTUS Trump is and how his current personal lawyer is already as I type this, recruiting Ukrainians to do Gawd knows what.
The facts are out for all to see. What Trump did is a crime. Period.
This isn't a matter of "upside;" it's a matter of following the law. It is Congress's duty to impeach a corrupt president. Period.
Pelosi didn't have the overwhelming evidence before the Ukranian scandal. We've all seen it and heard it with our own eyes and ears. Pelosi had no choice.
Either we're a nation of laws or just another failed state being run by scoundrels and crooks. I prefer the former. The Republicans obviously prefer the latter.
Ms Shaw, Only two presidents have been impeached and NO US president has been removed from office. Now that the kangaroo court is completed and the democrats got what they wanted maybe they will work for the country. Of course they need to start campaigning to keep their job so maybe in 2021 they will start.
Are we forgetting that Trump committed crimes on national television? Anyone who cannot wrap their heads around that horror isn't going to be swayed by McGahn rotely repeating; "I cannot answer that on the grounds of executive privilege" 7 months from now.
Again... Too fast? If a Democrat had done this the GOP would be holding noose tying competitions on Fox News YESTERDAY.
skud, I said Trump will be only the THIRD president to be impeached. Andrew Johnson, Bill Clinton were acquitted. Trump will be the THIRD.
Again, skud, like a lot of you Trumpsters, you conveniently ignore the fact that the Democrats have passed hundred, HUNDREDS, of bills in the House, and those pieces of legislation that the Democrats have worked on are sitting on Moscow Mitch's desk. He won't even bring them up for a vote.
Are you being deliberately obtuse or is today a special day for it? IT IS THE GOOPERS who've done nothing buty kiss Trump's fat arse. And history will remember that the GOP backed a corrupt, lying, cheater.
Gawd help you, but you Goopoers put all your bets on a man who is a serial adulterer, a man who illegally paid off his porn star and playmate paramours while running for the presidency, a man who had to pay $25 million to those he cheated with his fake Trump U.; a man who stole lmoney from his charitable foundation and spent it on himself -- he and his grifter spawn can never run a charity in NY state because of their cheating. Trump mocked a disabled journalist, a gold star family, a POW. He calls people who criticize him names like a schoolyard bully, he sucks up to the world's worst dictators -- especially Putin. He bribed one of our allies to get dirt on his political rival!
You and your fellow Goopers defend all of that, and more:
Trump's personal lawyer is in prison; Trump's former campaign manager is in prison, Trump's pick for NSA is awaiting sentencing; Trump's current personal lawyer is under investigation. And those are just a few of his close associates! There's much, much more.
But go ahead and tell us about President Obama who led an 8-year scandal-free presidency, had only one wife to whom he was faithful.
Everything I wrote is fact. Look at what you and the GOP support.
It is astounding, and I would never, NEVER have believed the fiscally conservative, family values Republican Party would not just support a corrupt man like Trump, but WORSHIP him.
I believe he said he didn't know him not never met him, there is a difference. When you were talking about serial adulterer I though you were speaking about BJ. As to BJ and Johnson being acquitted the correct statement should have been they were not removed from office and the house has not voted on impeachment for trump. Hopefully he will be convinced not to run for reelection and a reasonable conservative can run and win. I doubt that will happen because he will take a lesson from the other serial adulterer who showed you can be reelected after being impeached.
skud, it's really pathetic that you have to drag Bill Clinton into Trump dirt to justify both ment's adultery and lying. L'affaire Clinton was salacious, but give Clinton this: He never bragged to the world about grabbing women's P***ys because he's a star. Also, Clinton never made fun of disabled people, POWs, Gold Star families, and he certainly knew what he was talking about when he talked policy.
Trump is a dirty human being both in his marital life and his business life. Now we can add his political life: DIRTY, DIRTY, DIRTY.
And he belongs to the Republicans for all of American history.
Trump is where he is through his own corrupt actions.
"What's the point?"
My God. Americans have been so cowed by this president that they question making him accountable for his crimes? What the hell happened to us? We all reek of Trumpism where there's no accountability for any lawlessness.
I must say Dave's points are most cogent and grounded in reality.
I too know Trump is as guilty as guilty can be. I would like nothing better than to see the Orange blob removed. But that simply isn't going to happen.
In other words we fight, we lose, very likely Trump is reelected. If that is the end result of all this just what have the same ethical folks gained? What is the upside? When you lose your gamble you still have lost. Thus you are in a WEAKENED posistion.
What the democratic party should be doing is heeding Obama's advice and stop sprinting left. America is a center to slightly center right country. So, identify moderate center grounded candidate with enough charisma to excite folks.
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink. Nor should you expect that beating the same drum, loudly and frantically is going to accomplish much. Turley is most likely correct.
Friends on the left...facts are, Trump will not be removed from office. Yes the House, without any Republican support will vote to impeach but any hope of impeachment/removal will die in the Senate. Trump will be reelected based on the current weakness of the democratic candidates no matter how much you cry and moan on blogs about his perceived crimes.
Just because you can't win doesn't mean you don't try. The chances of the senate voting to convict are remote, but there is a principle that we don't let such crimes go unanswered. History will judge the democrats poorly if they let this slide. There must be consequences. America is done for if it just throws its hands in the air ands says, "Eh, whattya gonna do?"
Impeachment will anger Trump, and that is good. It will tie up his limited mental capacity, and that is good. It will be a constant ad campaign for viewers about how much Trump and the current rendition of the Republican party sucks, and that is good.
When the senate, in all likelihood, votes not to convict, there will be a record of how each senator voted. History will not be kind to those who didn't vote to convict. It will be a glaring example of corruption that can be used against them by future challengers. Their vote will be a black mark on their records all the way to their graves.
Clearwater, do you remember ten names who either or not voted to impeach Bill Clinton? Were "black marks" handed out then? This whole cluster will be long forgotten. Due you think any dem house members up for reelection in districts Trump won will suffer defeat due to this escapade?
Skud said: "I doubt that will happen because he will take a lesson from the other serial adulterer who showed you can be reelected after being impeached."
Can you explain how that happened when Clinton was re-elected in 1996 and the impeachment didn't start until the fall of 1998?
Possumlady, Trumpers don't pay attention to details like that. They just throw stuff out, hoping other people are as uninformed as they are. Good catch. I was on errands this afternoon and didn't have time to check on skud's comment.
I certainly will not register disagreement with the principles you reference.
Having said that the end result will, at the end of the day, have accomplished nothing if America in fact reelects Trump. A definite possibility.
It is looking more and more like Democrats took a gamble on hope the Anerican people would understand and see things exactly as they framed them. That isn't happening as hoped.
I repeat, completely rational folks abhor Trump and his unethical near criminal behavior in office. However, America appears at this juncture to be less ethical and moral than at anytime in modern history.
Hope for the RIGHT outcome. Prepare for the WRONG outcome.
I guess we could run it again if Trump is reelected. But...
"Clearwater, do you remember ten names who either or not voted to impeach Bill Clinton?"
I was living in New England before I retired to Florida at the time of Clinton's impeachment. I do remember that Collins and Snow of Maine, both Republicans and Jeffords of Vermont, a Repub. at the time, all voted NOT GUILTY.
But that's not the point. That impeachment was for a lie about a BJ. That's it. Clinton did not obsgruct the investigation and when he traveled abroad during the impeachment hearings, he didn't act like a goddamn toddler.
Among the articles going against Trump for this impeachment will most likely be bribery/extortion, obstruction, and abuse of power. Those are far more serious than lying about a BJ. Republicans who vote not guilty on those articles will be remembered for voting against the United States Constitution just so the Rethugs can keep a lying incompetent creep like Trump in office.
Clinton had the support of a majority of the American people even after his impeachment. Trump never reached a majority of support even after he was elected and has been wallowing in the low 40s. He's a minority president who never got a majority of Americans to support him and his lying, criminal self.
As for any Rethug pol suffering after the impeachment, just look at what happened in Kentucky, Louisiana, and Alabama (Doug Jones) all those states where Trump begged the Republicans to send a Republican to the governor's mansion or the US senate.
The Rethugs all lost in deep red states to Democrats.
PL, you are correct. He was impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors but remained in office. Clinton sicked his wife on all of his accusers as he lied to everyone that he did not rape several women and has sex with a young employee while at work. Guess that is OK with the left because he is revered as a great statesman.
Along with 60% of Americans, the WORLD looks at Trump and sees someone who is "insincere, ill-informed and corrupt." Someone who is "dangerously incompetent," and the way Joe Biden views it, "incapable of world leadership."
Trump’s geopolitical skills are limited to extortion.
y'know, skud, the more you bring up what Clinton did, the more it exposes your double standard on Trump.
Trump was a crotch buddy of Epstein's and his "Lolita Express." Trump's been accused of raping an underage girl by the girl herself. He's also been accused by 20+ women of sexual assault and harassment. Also, his first wife accused him of rape. Don't throw stones when your political party is worshipping a creep who lives in a glass house with a golden toilet.
I suppose if you and the other Republicans didn't have a double standard, you guys wouldn't have any standard at all.
Sorry to dissapoint you Clearwater but this latest dem attempt to remove a duly elected President from office you know you can't beat at the ballot box with the weak aray of candidates you presently have.
@skudrunner - No skudrunner, it's NOT okay with ANY moral person. Wether they be from the right OR the left.
But, Clinton's marital fidelity problems are not impeachable offences. Trump's obstruction, abuse of power, and bribery are. He used his OFFICE's official capacity to open the door to foreign involvement in our domestic affairs. For the purpose of enriching his political fortunes. With respect to quid pro quo, the argument that ultimately the 400 million in aid was released is irrelevant. No harm no foul does not fly.
Ms.Shaw, I believe it was Bill Clinton who was a "crotch buddy" of Epstein. I believe it was Bubba who took numerous flights on Epsteins plane an made visits to Pedo Island. Trump actually banned Epstein from Mar-A-Lago.
In the years before Epstein’s 2007 guilty plea to solicitation of prostitution with a minor, he was known for “collecting” friendships with many noteworthy or influential people — including Clinton and Trump, who were social acquaintances. Clinton took international trips on Epstein’s plane in the early years of his post-presidency, including a trip to several African countries with Kevin Spacey and Chris Tucker.
Trump, meanwhile, reportedly attended Epstein-hosted events in New York and Florida, as Epstein patronized the Mar-a-Lago Club. In 2002, Trump even gave a remarkable on-the-record comment about Epstein to a New York magazine journalist, calling him “terrific” and adding that he “likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side.”
So, at the very least, Trump and Clinton were friendly with someone who turned out to be a very bad guy.
We all know that Trump is a moral pig. He was definitely Epstein's crotch buddy. Photos and videos of him and Epstein are all over the net. Big deal. He kicked him out of Mar-a-Lago after he got what he wanted from Epstein.
RN, the "Always Trumpers" will never see him for the corrupt POTUS his is nor for the crimes he's committed. Trumpers are cultists. They've lost all sense of being rational.
"Anonymous said... Sorry to dissapoint you Clearwater but this latest dem attempt to remove a duly elected President from office you know you can't beat at the ballot box with the weak aray of candidates you presently have."
The impeachment is not an attempt to remove a duly electded POTUS, it's an attempt to bring to justice a lawless tyrant. We Americans don't take kindly to presidents who believe they "can do whatever they want, " and who commit bribery and extortion while trying to get a foregin country to help him win an election. That's what this is all about.
You Trumpers are now on record as supporting a corrupt and lawless idiot, who's mocked and ridiculed around the world and here at hom. He's supported by 30 per centers. A minority.
Shaw, here's your resident Trumper complaining over at that blog run by the resident drunk:
skudrunner: "I may not agree with the way trump does things but he is the first in a long time to actually attempt to do what he campaigned for. Did he do something stupid with the phone call, sure, but I don’t think he did anything illegal. Given enough time and resources you can find dirt on anyone and the dems had unlimited millions and three years to find something. Problem is they have no footing."
Your resident Trumper thinks tRump built the wall and made Mexico pay for it? He thinks he got Obamacare repealed and replaced with something better and less expensive? He thinks tRump renegotiated drug costs with Big Pharma? He thinks he got a good deal with China on the tariffs? He thinks tRump got KJU to give up nuclear weapons testing? He thinks America is more respected because of its POTUS all around the world?
The reason tRump is still president is because of assholes who refuse to see reality and that reality is that tRump is a crook and if Obama had done what tRump did with Ukraine and the Russians your resident Trumper and his friends at the drunken lady's blog would be out in the streets screaming for Obama's head.
Ray, as I've repeated dozens of times, those folks are irredeemable. Why waste your time reading their confused and incoherent comments. They're not mainstream America, they're the fringe radicals who have chosen to follow a corrupt, lying cheater, and nothing will ever dissuade them from their folly.
Anonymous, the point of the impeachment is to preserve and protect the Constitution from a lawless POTUS who used his office for his own political and private purposes. Period. He won't be removed from office. But at the very least his name in the history books will be tainted as having been impeached, just like Clinton's and Johnson's names.
That you don't consider what he and his henchmen did a crime only proves how marinated in the Trump cult you are.
I don't care if the Republicans in the Senate find him not guilty. The charges will be in the history books as well as the evidence and his name will always have an asterisk beside it as a disgraced POTUS.
Anonymous, Anonymous, We'll see. We'll see. At less then a year from the election, Trump is dow by double digits in the three states he won by 78,000 votes. He's down by 14 points in Iowa, and in the red state of Georgia? 3 points.
Hang on to your dreams. They may be all you have left.
Ray wrote: "Your resident Trumper thinks tRump built the wall and made Mexico pay for it? He thinks he got Obamacare repealed and replaced with something better and less expensive? He thinks tRump renegotiated drug costs with Big Pharma? He thinks he got a good deal with China on the tariffs? He thinks tRump got KJU to give up nuclear weapons testing? He thinks America is more respected because of its POTUS all around the world?"
You left out the deficit. Trump bragged-promised that he'dmake it disappear in 8 years. In fact, it has soared under his rotten, spendthrift leadership.
His supporters believe a documented liar, fraud, and cheat. LOL!
I see ole annoying mouse is, like most of the bizarre right wing, still fixated on Clinton while ignoring the FACT that their orange blob makes Bill Clinton look like a choirboy. I just don't tolerate the hypocrisy from the right, anymore. That's one bridge they burned a long time ago.
BlueBull, what is hilarious and indicative of the far right's ignorance is that they believe Trump has anything to do with the economy and job numbers. A man whose casinos CASINOS! went belly up and who's had 13 bankruptcies! They really are Trump's easiest marks!
Ms.Shaw,seems you are the one hoping and dreaming. I think deep down you realize DJT will never be removed from office and will be reelected in 2020 but do continue to hope.
The point of the impeachment is to get back at yellow hair for beating the democrat anointed candidate. They have been trying to impeach him since January 21, 2017 and all of their attempts have failed until he made a phone call. Bingo he asked for a favor and it is off to the races. No one who heard that conversation said he promised anything in return but it is the a criminal offense. When the swell guy said wait until after the elections and I will have more flexibility, was he talking about getting the involved in our elections?
RN, "Clinton's marital fidelity problems are not impeachable offences" So it is OK for a person with ultimate power to take sexual advantage of a young employee. Interesting opinion you have.
skudrunner: "The point of the impeachment is to get back at yellow hair for beating the democrat anointed candidate."
That's a lie! What sort of American looks past all the documented crimes this president has committed and decides the only reason for the impeachment is revenge? I'll answer my own question:
The sort of American who refuses to see the truth and willfully defends a crooked president for gawd knows what reasons. Are you so enamored of Trump's moral behavior that you believe he's the best America has to lead this country? Can you answer that question honestly?
I'd like to hear you defend your defense of a liar, a cheat and a fraud and a man who's committed crimes while in office.
skud: "No one who heard that conversation said he promised anything in return but it is the a criminal offense."
Lie.
A dozen witnesses from inside the administration — ambassadors, career foreign service officers, national security advisers inside the White House — all validate critical parts of the story line that the president withheld vital military aid to a critical ally in order to muscle it into interfering in our 2020 elections.
“Everyone was in the loop. It was no secret,” said Ambassador Gordon Sondland, Trump’s handpicked emissary to the European Union charged with effectuating the sleazy deal. The president’s former national security adviser, John Bolton, dubbed it a “drug deal.” And, as esteemed constitutional experts Noah Feldman of Harvard and Pamela Karlan of Stanford explained Wednesday, the principal purpose of impeachment is to prevent abuse of power, betrayal of our national security and corruption of elections.
skud: "When the swell guy said wait until after the elections and I will have more flexibility, was he talking about getting the involved in our elections?"
That was not an impeachable offense. Withholding Congressionally authorized money without the consent of Congress is a crime, and extorting a foreign national to make him help Trump win an election is a crime.
That you continue to ignore this and try to compare Trump's crimes with anything Mr. Obama did is dishonest, disingenuous, and dumb.
You refuse to see Trump for the crook he is. That's your problem, not mine.
Skud... the point of impeachment is to remove a president who is a danger to our constitution and our country. Even today we learn that Pres Trump insists on using his personal, non secure phone, to talk with others, potentially himself and our welfare at risk to spying by hostile countries.
People are not trying to overturn an election. People are afraid of the damage that is happening daily to our country, and the continued risk of a Trump Administration.
To the larger crowd, I keep hearing that removing Pres Trump would "subvert the will of the American people". The problem there is that Donald Trump never won the majority support of the American people. By almost 4 million votes. His election literally subverted the will of the American people from day 1.
Ms Shaw, I do believe he is a crook as most if not all politicians are. I just think this is getting back at "he who beat the beast". When asked in the hearings if several "witnesses" heard a quid pro quo all of them said no. This whole circus was orchestrated by the dems from the day trump took office they were just waiting for something to go after and they found it. The senate hearings should be interesting because most congressman will be recognized by the chair.
It is sad that the country is run by a bunch of rich elitist crooks who only look after their well being and not the countries. Of course it has been this way from the beginning and will not change until the people demand change in the form of term limits and citizen legislators instead of professional career politicians.
All good points,Dave. They won’t, however, be convinced because they’re cultists and not interested in the truth. That is the very definition of cultists.
Skud says he’s not a Trump fan, but every time he comments here, his words belie his claim. He even believes the impeachment is to remove a duly elected president and not the truth: the impeachment is demanded by our Constitution. Trump betrayed his oath of office. Period.
Rev, as a famous president once said, he won you lost. Now I know millions was spent on therapy for those who cannot accept that but your very own swell guy said that. Trumps election upheld the voting system established in the US since 1804 so it is not something new. It only became a big issue because the -H- lost. I don't consider only California and New York to represent the will of the people and if you take out their votes on both sides the -H- lost big time. Do away with the electoral college and we might as well just have Calif and New York determine who will be president. The middle of the country should have an equal say and not just the coasties. You want a different president, as I do, come up with a sane candidate,
He has little to no understanding of our Constititution. Worse, he could NOT care any less about preserving, protecting, OR defending the Constitution.
skud: "Do away with the electoral college and we might as well just have Calif and New York determine who will be president. The middle of the country should have an equal say and not just the coasties. You want a different president, as I do, come up with a sane candidate,"
This is what Trump cultists don't understand. In a presidential election it is one man/woman, one vote. Those are NOT New York or California VOTES -- Those are AMERICAN VOTES.
And the American voters in New York, California, Massachusetts, and every other blue state are the EXACT same as the voters in Mississippi and Alabama. You and your fellow cultist don't understand that. Another reason Trump has a following of the 30 percenters: They don't know how our system works.
Trump cultists have said they'd like to do away with Congress and the courts so that Trump could rule without interference. That's how Trump cultists think. That's also how Commies and other totalitarian tyrants think as well.
Don't EVEN attempt to put words in my mouth skudrunner. You know damn well I did NOT say it's okay to take sexual advantage of a young adult female employee if a person has ultimate power. I do NOT believe that. And, YOU damn well know it.
skud: "RN, "Clinton's marital fidelity problems are not impeachable offences" So it is OK for a person with ultimate power to take sexual advantage of a young employee. Interesting opinion you have."
skudrunner is willfully ignorant here. Clinton was impeached for lying under oath, not for his moral failings. If moral failings were impeachable, Trump would have been impeached right after taking the Oath of Office. Trump makes Clinton look like a choirboy. (I think RN said that first.)
RN are you studying botox nancy now with your don't EVEN. You said marital fidelity problems instead of taking sexual advantage of a young employee in other words using power to get sex. How is what he did different from epstein, weinstein, etc. They all used their position of power to get sex and you don't feel that reaches the same level as trump asking for favor. Must be OK with you.
skud: "They all used their position of power to get sex and you don't feel that reaches the same level as trump asking for favor. Must be OK with you."
No, skud, it's not the same.
What Trump did was use the awesome powers of the POTUS to extort a favor from a foreign power to get himself re-elected by asking said foreign power to say they're opening an investigation into the Bidens, and to announce that on CNN. Trump, in his sliminess, didn't even want a REAL investigation, just an announcement. According to Sondland who has first-hand evidence -- he spoke with Trump himself -- Trump doesn't "give a shit" about Ukraine, just getting Ukraine to announce they're investigating the Bidens. That's what Sondland, UNDER OATH, testified to. Maybe you missed it.
What Trump did is magnitudes worse than what Bill Clinton did. Clinton never sold out America they way Trump did and continues to do.
You don't see it that way because you're blinded by being in the cult. Despite your protestations, you most certainly are a cultist.
Well, nice to see ole skidmark making his usual nonsensical ramblings. Consistency is nice, it's comfortable, and with many things, tradition is a good thing. With trying to reason with a rightie, however, it's just frustrating that all they can spew is the same tired old lies, junior high school name calling and double standards higher than any wall Trump will EVER get built. Such a sad little bunch of people they have become.
57 comments:
So... I think Trump is as guilty as they come of using not his, but our office for his personal gain.
With that said, let's move on to impeachment.
It's going to be a mess. Speaker Pelosi and other Dems are on record saying it would be unwise to impeach Pres Trump without Bi-Partisan support. Clearly, we do not have that. We can argue all we want about whether we'd ever get that and the implications of such, but the fact remains, Pelosi made that statement, and has not offered any reason as to why she is disregarding it. Nor have any other Democrats.
The trail will be help in the Senate, under rules dictated by Mitch McConnell. Does anyone think those rules will lean left, favor the Dems, or allow them to call additional fact witnesses? Without additional testimony, which again, McConnell's rules will likely not permit, how do the Dems flip anyone?
Justice Roberts will be bound Constitutionally, by the Senate rules and be unable to call witnesses, allow Dems to do, or enforce subpoenas.
So we are faced with this question... What's the point?
Prof Turley made a good point in that Dems should slow down, and take the Admin to court. But they are terrified by the election clock. Every Senator running for Pres can, I believe, pretty much kiss their chances goodbye. McConnell will be keeping them in the Senate all through the Iowa and NH contests. Their candidacies are effectively dead.
So where's our upside?
The Dems are gonna swing big, but in my opinion, swing and miss, just like Mighty Casey.
What should Dems have done? What should our country have done? How could this have been different?
To those questions, I have no clue.
Dave: "Where's our upside?"
The upside is not allowing Trump to get away with his crimes. I don't care if the Republicans in the Senate acquit him (they'll go down in history as siding with a corrupt, venal POTUS). To throw our hands up and say "What can we do? This is a deeply partisan situation where the GOPers will side with their POTUS, crimes and all!" -- to do that is to allow any scoundrel or crooked POTUS to claim "I can do whatever I want!," just like Trump did. Do we Americans want to accept that?
Is that what America is about? Have we fallen so far and become so weak that we allow a terrible man like Trump to destroy everything this country stood for here and around the world just because the Republican Party is filled with cowards?
Letting the voters decide in 2020 is too dangerous, since we know what a rogue POTUS Trump is and how his current personal lawyer is already as I type this, recruiting Ukrainians to do Gawd knows what.
The facts are out for all to see. What Trump did is a crime. Period.
This isn't a matter of "upside;" it's a matter of following the law. It is Congress's duty to impeach a corrupt president. Period.
Pelosi didn't have the overwhelming evidence before the Ukranian scandal. We've all seen it and heard it with our own eyes and ears. Pelosi had no choice.
Either we're a nation of laws or just another failed state being run by scoundrels and crooks. I prefer the former. The Republicans obviously prefer the latter.
Ms Shaw, Only two presidents have been impeached and NO US president has been removed from office.
Now that the kangaroo court is completed and the democrats got what they wanted maybe they will work for the country. Of course they need to start campaigning to keep their job so maybe in 2021 they will start.
Are we forgetting that Trump committed crimes on national television? Anyone who cannot wrap their heads around that horror isn't going to be swayed by McGahn rotely repeating; "I cannot answer that on the grounds of executive privilege" 7 months from now.
Again... Too fast? If a Democrat had done this the GOP would be holding noose tying competitions on Fox News YESTERDAY.
skud, I said Trump will be only the THIRD president to be impeached. Andrew Johnson, Bill Clinton were acquitted. Trump will be the THIRD.
Again, skud, like a lot of you Trumpsters, you conveniently ignore the fact that the Democrats have passed hundred, HUNDREDS, of bills in the House, and those pieces of legislation that the Democrats have worked on are sitting on Moscow Mitch's desk. He won't even bring them up for a vote.
Are you being deliberately obtuse or is today a special day for it? IT IS THE GOOPERS who've done nothing buty kiss Trump's fat arse. And history will remember that the GOP backed a corrupt, lying, cheater.
Gawd help you, but you Goopoers put all your bets on a man who is a serial adulterer, a man who illegally paid off his porn star and playmate paramours while running for the presidency, a man who had to pay $25 million to those he cheated with his fake Trump U.; a man who stole lmoney from his charitable foundation and spent it on himself -- he and his grifter spawn can never run a charity in NY state because of their cheating. Trump mocked a disabled journalist, a gold star family, a POW. He calls people who criticize him names like a schoolyard bully, he sucks up to the world's worst dictators -- especially Putin. He bribed one of our allies to get dirt on his political rival!
You and your fellow Goopers defend all of that, and more:
Trump's personal lawyer is in prison; Trump's former campaign manager is in prison, Trump's pick for NSA is awaiting sentencing; Trump's current personal lawyer is under investigation. And those are just a few of his close associates! There's much, much more.
But go ahead and tell us about President Obama who led an 8-year scandal-free presidency, had only one wife to whom he was faithful.
Everything I wrote is fact. Look at what you and the GOP support.
It is astounding, and I would never, NEVER have believed the fiscally conservative, family values Republican Party would not just support a corrupt man like Trump, but WORSHIP him.
Ray, No kidding. It is astounding that the once proud Party of Lincoln now attaches itself to a low-life crook.
PS. 53% of the GOP say that Trump is a better president than Lincoln.
Trump is essentially a coward and a bully and isn't fit to be mentioned in the same breath as Lincoln.
That stat shows us all how sick and degraded the GOP is at this point.
skud, Ray, and Dave,
Here's another instance of Trump's pathalogical lying or dementia. Which is it?
Trump says he doesn’t know Britain’s Prince Andrew. They had a breakfast meeting in June.
I believe he said he didn't know him not never met him, there is a difference.
When you were talking about serial adulterer I though you were speaking about BJ. As to BJ and Johnson being acquitted the correct statement should have been they were not removed from office and the house has not voted on impeachment for trump.
Hopefully he will be convinced not to run for reelection and a reasonable conservative can run and win. I doubt that will happen because he will take a lesson from the other serial adulterer who showed you can be reelected after being impeached.
skud, it's really pathetic that you have to drag Bill Clinton into Trump dirt to justify both ment's adultery and lying. L'affaire Clinton was salacious, but give Clinton this: He never bragged to the world about grabbing women's P***ys because he's a star. Also, Clinton never made fun of disabled people, POWs, Gold Star families, and he certainly knew what he was talking about when he talked policy.
Trump is a dirty human being both in his marital life and his business life. Now we can add his political life: DIRTY, DIRTY, DIRTY.
And he belongs to the Republicans for all of American history.
Trump is where he is through his own corrupt actions.
"What's the point?"
My God. Americans have been so cowed by this president that they question making him accountable for his crimes? What the hell happened to us? We all reek of Trumpism where there's no accountability for any lawlessness.
Look at what this menace has done to America!
I must say Dave's points are most cogent and grounded in reality.
I too know Trump is as guilty as guilty can be. I would like nothing better than to see the Orange blob removed. But that simply isn't going to happen.
In other words we fight, we lose, very likely Trump is reelected. If that is the end result of all this just what have the same ethical folks gained? What is the upside? When you lose your gamble you still have lost. Thus you are in a WEAKENED posistion.
What the democratic party should be doing is heeding Obama's advice and stop sprinting left. America is a center to slightly center right country. So, identify moderate center grounded candidate with enough charisma to excite folks.
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink. Nor should you expect that beating the same drum, loudly and frantically is going to accomplish much. Turley is most likely correct.
Friends on the left...facts are, Trump will not be removed from office. Yes the House, without any Republican support will vote to impeach but any hope of impeachment/removal will die in the Senate. Trump will be reelected based on the current weakness of the democratic candidates no matter how much you cry and moan on blogs about his perceived crimes.
I must add, this spectacle says as much about 50% of our fellow Americans as it does about Trump.
Just because you can't win doesn't mean you don't try. The chances of the senate voting to convict are remote, but there is a principle that we don't let such crimes go unanswered. History will judge the democrats poorly if they let this slide. There must be consequences. America is done for if it just throws its hands in the air ands says, "Eh, whattya gonna do?"
Impeachment will anger Trump, and that is good. It will tie up his limited mental capacity, and that is good. It will be a constant ad campaign for viewers about how much Trump and the current rendition of the Republican party sucks, and that is good.
When the senate, in all likelihood, votes not to convict, there will be a record of how each senator voted. History will not be kind to those who didn't vote to convict. It will be a glaring example of corruption that can be used against them by future challengers. Their vote will be a black mark on their records all the way to their graves.
Clearwater, do you remember ten names who either or not voted to impeach Bill Clinton? Were "black marks" handed out then? This whole cluster will be long forgotten. Due you think any dem house members up for reelection in districts Trump won will suffer defeat due to this escapade?
Skud said:
"I doubt that will happen because he will take a lesson from the other serial adulterer who showed you can be reelected after being impeached."
Can you explain how that happened when Clinton was re-elected in 1996 and the impeachment didn't start until the fall of 1998?
Possumlady
Possumlady, Trumpers don't pay attention to details like that. They just throw stuff out, hoping other people are as uninformed as they are. Good catch. I was on errands this afternoon and didn't have time to check on skud's comment.
I certainly will not register disagreement with the principles you reference.
Having said that the end result will, at the end of the day, have accomplished nothing if America in fact reelects Trump. A definite possibility.
It is looking more and more like Democrats took a gamble on hope the Anerican people would understand and see things exactly as they framed them. That isn't happening as hoped.
I repeat, completely rational folks abhor Trump and his unethical near criminal behavior in office. However, America appears at this juncture to be less ethical and moral than at anytime in modern history.
Hope for the RIGHT outcome. Prepare for the WRONG outcome.
I guess we could run it again if Trump is reelected. But...
"Clearwater, do you remember ten names who either or not voted to impeach Bill Clinton?"
I was living in New England before I retired to Florida at the time of Clinton's impeachment. I do remember that Collins and Snow of Maine, both Republicans and Jeffords of Vermont, a Repub. at the time, all voted NOT GUILTY.
But that's not the point. That impeachment was for a lie about a BJ. That's it. Clinton did not obsgruct the investigation and when he traveled abroad during the impeachment hearings, he didn't act like a goddamn toddler.
Among the articles going against Trump for this impeachment will most likely be bribery/extortion, obstruction, and abuse of power. Those are far more serious than lying about a BJ. Republicans who vote not guilty on those articles will be remembered for voting against the United States Constitution just so the Rethugs can keep a lying incompetent creep like Trump in office.
Clinton had the support of a majority of the American people even after his impeachment. Trump never reached a majority of support even after he was elected and has been wallowing in the low 40s. He's a minority president who never got a majority of Americans to support him and his lying, criminal self.
As for any Rethug pol suffering after the impeachment, just look at what happened in Kentucky, Louisiana, and Alabama (Doug Jones) all those states where Trump begged the Republicans to send a Republican to the governor's mansion or the US senate.
The Rethugs all lost in deep red states to Democrats.
Think about that.
We HOPE the trend continues. If indeed it's a trend and not just a flash.
PL, you are correct. He was impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors but remained in office.
Clinton sicked his wife on all of his accusers as he lied to everyone that he did not rape several women and has sex with a young employee while at work. Guess that is OK with the left because he is revered as a great statesman.
Along with 60% of Americans, the WORLD looks at Trump and sees someone who is "insincere, ill-informed and corrupt." Someone who is "dangerously incompetent," and the way Joe Biden views it, "incapable of world leadership."
Trump’s geopolitical skills are limited to extortion.
Fortunately the WORLD doesn't have a place at the table of USA impeachment proceedings.
y'know, skud, the more you bring up what Clinton did, the more it exposes your double standard on Trump.
Trump was a crotch buddy of Epstein's and his "Lolita Express." Trump's been accused of raping an underage girl by the girl herself. He's also been accused by 20+ women of sexual assault and harassment. Also, his first wife accused him of rape. Don't throw stones when your political party is worshipping a creep who lives in a glass house with a golden toilet.
I suppose if you and the other Republicans didn't have a double standard, you guys wouldn't have any standard at all.
Sorry to dissapoint you Clearwater but this latest dem attempt to remove a duly elected President from office you know you can't beat at the ballot box with the weak aray of candidates you presently have.
@skudrunner - No skudrunner, it's NOT okay with ANY moral person. Wether they be from the right OR the left.
But, Clinton's marital fidelity problems are not impeachable offences. Trump's obstruction, abuse of power, and bribery are. He used his OFFICE's official capacity to open the door to foreign involvement in our domestic affairs. For the purpose of enriching his political fortunes. With respect to quid pro quo, the argument that ultimately the 400 million in aid was released is irrelevant. No harm no foul does not fly.
Ms.Shaw, I believe it was Bill Clinton who was a "crotch buddy" of Epstein. I believe it was Bubba who took numerous flights on Epsteins plane an made visits to Pedo Island.
Trump actually banned Epstein from Mar-A-Lago.
In the years before Epstein’s 2007 guilty plea to solicitation of prostitution with a minor, he was known for “collecting” friendships with many noteworthy or influential people — including Clinton and Trump, who were social acquaintances. Clinton took international trips on Epstein’s plane in the early years of his post-presidency, including a trip to several African countries with Kevin Spacey and Chris Tucker.
Trump, meanwhile, reportedly attended Epstein-hosted events in New York and Florida, as Epstein patronized the Mar-a-Lago Club. In 2002, Trump even gave a remarkable on-the-record comment about Epstein to a New York magazine journalist, calling him “terrific” and adding that he “likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side.”
So, at the very least, Trump and Clinton were friendly with someone who turned out to be a very bad guy.
We all know that Trump is a moral pig. He was definitely Epstein's crotch buddy. Photos and videos of him and Epstein are all over the net. Big deal. He kicked him out of Mar-a-Lago after he got what he wanted from Epstein.
PS Clinton isn't the POTUS, Trump is. For now.
RN, the "Always Trumpers" will never see him for the corrupt POTUS his is nor for the crimes he's committed. Trumpers are cultists. They've lost all sense of being rational.
"Anonymous said...
Sorry to dissapoint you Clearwater but this latest dem attempt to remove a duly elected President from office you know you can't beat at the ballot box with the weak aray of candidates you presently have."
The impeachment is not an attempt to remove a duly electded POTUS, it's an attempt to bring to justice a lawless tyrant. We Americans don't take kindly to presidents who believe they "can do whatever they want, " and who commit bribery and extortion while trying to get a foregin country to help him win an election. That's what this is all about.
You Trumpers are now on record as supporting a corrupt and lawless idiot, who's mocked and ridiculed around the world and here at hom. He's supported by 30 per centers. A minority.
Shaw that’s a FREAKEN LIE
Shaw, here's your resident Trumper complaining over at that blog run by the resident drunk:
skudrunner: "I may not agree with the way trump does things but he is the first in a long time to actually attempt to do what he campaigned for. Did he do something stupid with the phone call, sure, but I don’t think he did anything illegal. Given enough time and resources you can find dirt on anyone and the dems had unlimited millions and three years to find something. Problem is they have no footing."
Your resident Trumper thinks tRump built the wall and made Mexico pay for it? He thinks he got Obamacare repealed and replaced with something better and less expensive? He thinks tRump renegotiated drug costs with Big Pharma? He thinks he got a good deal with China on the tariffs? He thinks tRump got KJU to give up nuclear weapons testing? He thinks America is more respected because of its POTUS all around the world?
The reason tRump is still president is because of assholes who refuse to see reality and that reality is that tRump is a crook and if Obama had done what tRump did with Ukraine and the Russians your resident Trumper and his friends at the drunken lady's blog would be out in the streets screaming for Obama's head.
They're the worst kind of hypocrites.
Mister R., prove me wrong.
Ms.Shaw, your nose will grow if you continue to tell fibs like "the impeachment is not an attempt to remove a duly elected POTUS."
Ray, as I've repeated dozens of times, those folks are irredeemable. Why waste your time reading their confused and incoherent comments. They're not mainstream America, they're the fringe radicals who have chosen to follow a corrupt, lying cheater, and nothing will ever dissuade them from their folly.
Anonymous, the point of the impeachment is to preserve and protect the Constitution from a lawless POTUS who used his office for his own political and private purposes. Period. He won't be removed from office. But at the very least his name in the history books will be tainted as having been impeached, just like Clinton's and Johnson's names.
That you don't consider what he and his henchmen did a crime only proves how marinated in the Trump cult you are.
I don't care if the Republicans in the Senate find him not guilty. The charges will be in the history books as well as the evidence and his name will always have an asterisk beside it as a disgraced POTUS.
And perhaps next Nov. Ms.Shaw you and Ray can join us in a toast to another four years of economic successes under President Donald J. Trump
It's scary to think how insane you folks will get when DJT gets reelected next Nov..
Anonymous, Anonymous, We'll see. We'll see. At less then a year from the election, Trump is dow by double digits in the three states he won by 78,000 votes. He's down by 14 points in Iowa, and in the red state of Georgia? 3 points.
Hang on to your dreams. They may be all you have left.
Donald Trump is being impeached!
Ray wrote: "Your resident Trumper thinks tRump built the wall and made Mexico pay for it? He thinks he got Obamacare repealed and replaced with something better and less expensive? He thinks tRump renegotiated drug costs with Big Pharma? He thinks he got a good deal with China on the tariffs? He thinks tRump got KJU to give up nuclear weapons testing? He thinks America is more respected because of its POTUS all around the world?"
You left out the deficit. Trump bragged-promised that he'dmake it disappear in 8 years. In fact, it has soared under his rotten, spendthrift leadership.
His supporters believe a documented liar, fraud, and cheat. LOL!
I see ole annoying mouse is, like most of the bizarre right wing, still fixated on Clinton while ignoring the FACT that their orange blob makes Bill Clinton look like a choirboy. I just don't tolerate the hypocrisy from the right, anymore. That's one bridge they burned a long time ago.
BlueBull, what is hilarious and indicative of the far right's ignorance is that they believe Trump has anything to do with the economy and job numbers. A man whose casinos CASINOS! went belly up and who's had 13 bankruptcies! They really are Trump's easiest marks!
Ms.Shaw,seems you are the one hoping and dreaming. I think deep down you realize DJT will never be removed from office and will be reelected in 2020 but do continue to hope.
The point of the impeachment is to get back at yellow hair for beating the democrat anointed candidate. They have been trying to impeach him since January 21, 2017 and all of their attempts have failed until he made a phone call. Bingo he asked for a favor and it is off to the races. No one who heard that conversation said he promised anything in return but it is the a criminal offense. When the swell guy said wait until after the elections and I will have more flexibility, was he talking about getting the involved in our elections?
RN, "Clinton's marital fidelity problems are not impeachable offences"
So it is OK for a person with ultimate power to take sexual advantage of a young employee. Interesting opinion you have.
skudrunner: "The point of the impeachment is to get back at yellow hair for beating the democrat anointed candidate."
That's a lie! What sort of American looks past all the documented crimes this president has committed and decides the only reason for the impeachment is revenge? I'll answer my own question:
The sort of American who refuses to see the truth and willfully defends a crooked president for gawd knows what reasons. Are you so enamored of Trump's moral behavior that you believe he's the best America has to lead this country? Can you answer that question honestly?
I'd like to hear you defend your defense of a liar, a cheat and a fraud and a man who's committed crimes while in office.
skud: "No one who heard that conversation said he promised anything in return but it is the a criminal offense."
Lie.
A dozen witnesses from inside the administration — ambassadors, career foreign service officers, national security advisers inside the White House — all validate critical parts of the story line that the president withheld vital military aid to a critical ally in order to muscle it into interfering in our 2020 elections.
“Everyone was in the loop. It was no secret,” said Ambassador Gordon Sondland, Trump’s handpicked emissary to the European Union charged with effectuating the sleazy deal. The president’s former national security adviser, John Bolton, dubbed it a “drug deal.” And, as esteemed constitutional experts Noah Feldman of Harvard and Pamela Karlan of Stanford explained Wednesday, the principal purpose of impeachment is to prevent abuse of power, betrayal of our national security and corruption of elections.
skud: "When the swell guy said wait until after the elections and I will have more flexibility, was he talking about getting the involved in our elections?"
That was not an impeachable offense. Withholding Congressionally authorized money without the consent of Congress is a crime, and extorting a foreign national to make him help Trump win an election is a crime.
That you continue to ignore this and try to compare Trump's crimes with anything Mr. Obama did is dishonest, disingenuous, and dumb.
You refuse to see Trump for the crook he is. That's your problem, not mine.
Skud... the point of impeachment is to remove a president who is a danger to our constitution and our country. Even today we learn that Pres Trump insists on using his personal, non secure phone, to talk with others, potentially himself and our welfare at risk to spying by hostile countries.
People are not trying to overturn an election. People are afraid of the damage that is happening daily to our country, and the continued risk of a Trump Administration.
To the larger crowd, I keep hearing that removing Pres Trump would "subvert the will of the American people". The problem there is that Donald Trump never won the majority support of the American people. By almost 4 million votes. His election literally subverted the will of the American people from day 1.
Ms Shaw, I do believe he is a crook as most if not all politicians are. I just think this is getting back at "he who beat the beast". When asked in the hearings if several "witnesses" heard a quid pro quo all of them said no. This whole circus was orchestrated by the dems from the day trump took office they were just waiting for something to go after and they found it. The senate hearings should be interesting because most congressman will be recognized by the chair.
It is sad that the country is run by a bunch of rich elitist crooks who only look after their well being and not the countries. Of course it has been this way from the beginning and will not change until the people demand change in the form of term limits and citizen legislators instead of professional career politicians.
All good points,Dave. They won’t, however, be convinced because they’re cultists and not interested in the truth. That is the very definition of cultists.
Skud says he’s not a Trump fan, but every time he comments here, his words belie his claim. He even believes the impeachment is to remove a duly elected president and not the truth: the impeachment is demanded by our Constitution. Trump betrayed his oath of office. Period.
Rev, as a famous president once said, he won you lost. Now I know millions was spent on therapy for those who cannot accept that but your very own swell guy said that.
Trumps election upheld the voting system established in the US since 1804 so it is not something new. It only became a big issue because the -H- lost. I don't consider only California and New York to represent the will of the people and if you take out their votes on both sides the -H- lost big time.
Do away with the electoral college and we might as well just have Calif and New York determine who will be president. The middle of the country should have an equal say and not just the coasties. You want a different president, as I do, come up with a sane candidate,
Trump longs to be a Monarch.
He has little to no understanding of our Constititution. Worse, he could NOT care any less about preserving, protecting, OR defending the Constitution.
skud: "Do away with the electoral college and we might as well just have Calif and New York determine who will be president. The middle of the country should have an equal say and not just the coasties. You want a different president, as I do, come up with a sane candidate,"
This is what Trump cultists don't understand. In a presidential election it is one man/woman, one vote. Those are NOT New York or California VOTES -- Those are AMERICAN VOTES.
And the American voters in New York, California, Massachusetts, and every other blue state are the EXACT same as the voters in Mississippi and Alabama. You and your fellow cultist don't understand that. Another reason Trump has a following of the 30 percenters: They don't know how our system works.
Trump cultists have said they'd like to do away with Congress and the courts so that Trump could rule without interference. That's how Trump cultists think. That's also how Commies and other totalitarian tyrants think as well.
You're in great company, skud.
Don't EVEN attempt to put words in my mouth skudrunner. You know damn well I did NOT say it's okay to take sexual advantage of a young adult female employee if a person has ultimate power. I do NOT believe that. And, YOU damn well know it.
skud: "RN, "Clinton's marital fidelity problems are not impeachable offences"
So it is OK for a person with ultimate power to take sexual advantage of a young employee. Interesting opinion you have."
skudrunner is willfully ignorant here. Clinton was impeached for lying under oath, not for his moral failings. If moral failings were impeachable, Trump would have been impeached right after taking the Oath of Office. Trump makes Clinton look like a choirboy. (I think RN said that first.)
RN are you studying botox nancy now with your don't EVEN.
You said marital fidelity problems instead of taking sexual advantage of a young employee in other words using power to get sex. How is what he did different from epstein, weinstein, etc. They all used their position of power to get sex and you don't feel that reaches the same level as trump asking for favor. Must be OK with you.
skud: "They all used their position of power to get sex and you don't feel that reaches the same level as trump asking for favor. Must be OK with you."
No, skud, it's not the same.
What Trump did was use the awesome powers of the POTUS to extort a favor from a foreign power to get himself re-elected by asking said foreign power to say they're opening an investigation into the Bidens, and to announce that on CNN. Trump, in his sliminess, didn't even want a REAL investigation, just an announcement. According to Sondland who has first-hand evidence -- he spoke with Trump himself -- Trump doesn't "give a shit" about Ukraine, just getting Ukraine to announce they're investigating the Bidens. That's what Sondland, UNDER OATH, testified to. Maybe you missed it.
What Trump did is magnitudes worse than what Bill Clinton did. Clinton never sold out America they way Trump did and continues to do.
You don't see it that way because you're blinded by being in the cult. Despite your protestations, you most certainly are a cultist.
Well, nice to see ole skidmark making his usual nonsensical ramblings. Consistency is nice, it's comfortable, and with many things, tradition is a good thing. With trying to reason with a rightie, however, it's just frustrating that all they can spew is the same tired old lies, junior high school name calling and double standards higher than any wall Trump will EVER get built. Such a sad little bunch of people they have become.
Okay skid. Thanks for confirming you are, in fact, a Trump cultist and therefore PART of America's BIGGEST PROBLEM.
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