"The details in the indictment make it clear that Mr. Trump knew that he was not authorized to keep national security secrets in his possession and that he played a cat-and-mouse game to conceal them from the F.B.I. and other federal officials.
At one point he suggested his lawyer take some documents to his hotel room and 'pluck' out anything really bad, the indictment says. 'Wouldn’t it be better if we just told them we don’t have anything here?' he asked his lawyers. He added, 'Well, look, isn’t it better if there are no documents?' Meanwhile, he instructed his lawyers to falsely inform federal investigators that they had cooperated fully.
With these actions, the former president demonstrated once again his contempt for the rule of law, his disregard for America’s national security and his mockery of the oath he took to support and defend the Constitution."
How can the party for the rule of law defend this alleged criminal, Trump?
Trump represents the rejection of American democracy.
Email from a friend:
"I don't see what all the fuss is about in indicting a former president if the evidence merits it on purely legal grounds. Sure, it'll add to the partisan rancor here, but that was going to happen either way so it's a wash. And if it looks like a partisan prosecution to some then that's only because they want to see it that way and not because of the underlying facts. Nor does it set a bad precedent just because of how it might look to some. Justice should never be based on how it looks, EVER. Anyone arguing otherwise is either a Trump partisan, a weak-kneed fool, or an outright fool."
34 comments:
Shaw... the republicans still defending trump's actions, in any way shape or form, are ignorant delusional fools in every sense of those words. They are, a greater threat to our democracy and the ruleif law than anything since the Civil War.
The are, a thoroughly disgusting group of asshats.
What's the fuss all about?
I've got lots of friends who lean right and/or live in rural America. Sure, they get their news from the usual suspects like FOX. But they, at least many of my friends, are not stupid folks. Many of them are health care professionals, run large single family ranching operations, small businesses, etc.
Here's the questions they ask.
1. Yes, what about Hillary? They feel Hillary got a break while Trump can't catch a break. In the end, the call on HRC came down to criminal intent. Did she smash her hard drive to obscure criminal activity?
I think the answer is no. I don't believe Hillary's actions for a minute were benign, even if they weren't criminal. Perhaps the famously risk averse HRC was just getting rid of potentially damaging emails. Not a crime, but politically expedient. At the least, they'd like some acknowledgement of that.
2. And what about Hunter Biden. Yes, I know, it's a tired almost cliche like question, but ask yourself this... Since libs were up in arms about Jared enriching himself through his position and access to his father in law, is it unreasonable to ask those same questions about Hunter?
And if there is nothing there, why are liberals seemingly so worried about even asking questions?
3. Finally, the border. If we're so fast to condemn Trump they ask for breaking laws, why not those entering the US "illegally"? And yes, they lump asylum seekers into this category. Because they get their appt date, years later, then just melt into America and never return.
If the Dems want laws enforced they ask, why not start at the border? When they see one of the largest unions in the nation, the folks cleaning hotels in CA, negotiating an end to E-Verify to make sure only citizens are working, don't they have a point? Each and everyday America, while calling itself a country of laws and order, excuses people breaking our immigration laws.
Just my view in answer to the what's the fuss question.
If what is alleged in the indictment is true, Trump needs to go to jail for a long time. And all of the above can be true too, and Trump still would need to go to jail if he is proven guilty. It's that two things can be true at the same time theory.
The GOP should be holding their powder on the indictment, but they won't. They can't. Face it, they're addicted to love, oops, Trump.
I vote for "outright fool".
Rule of law.
Well Dave, i guess those folks, your right leaning friends, don't buy the path of, first work to clean up your own dirty house before turning attention to your neighbor's. Or, as Christ said, and i paraphrase, first remove the log from your own eyes before attempting to remove the speck from your neighbor's.
As long as the finger pointing, self interest, and fuzzy thinking continues, and it will, it is likely this nation will remain in slumber mode awhile longer.
Dave M.
To respond to your post, maybe you should have those who complain about Trump's indictment under the Espionage Act and Presidential Papers Act, maybe you should ask them to read the indictment to read the evidence.
We have to let the Hunter Biden investigations play out and if he's found guilty of what they're alleging, let him face the consequences. I certainly won't be threatening civil war if that were to happen -- like the Trump cultists are threatening because Trump is facing the consequences of his ALLEGED crimes.
Hillary's deletion of her emails did not come under the Presidential Papers Act, and, as you pointed out earlier, what she did became a felony because of what Trump passed as one of his first acts as president, and what he was indicted for!
As for the border, none of the administrations over the past decades have addressed that problem -- Dem or Republican. Trump had the House and Senate and did nothing. He passed a permanent billionaire's tax break and did no meaningful legislation on the border.
Shaw posted...
"I certainly won't be threatening civil war if that were to happen -- like the Trump cultists are threatening because Trump is facing the consequences of his ALLEGED crimes."
And this is the diff between us libs and many MAGA conservatives...
All... I went back and forth on whether to post a "those views are not necessarily my views or the views of Progressive Eruptions" disclaimer.
Cause I'm sure some will assume they are.
I'm just sharing how some of my friends got to where they are and what the feel, or believe...
Rev, Very comprehensive post and seems to capture the frustration felt by many. DJT is guilty by his own admission so that is not in question. His punishment is going to be determined by our totally corrupt legal system so there will be more to follow.
What is needed more than anything else is a non biased fourth estate. If you listen to MSDNC, CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC trump is the devil incarnate and if you listen to fox he is saint donald. We have a corrupt form of government but that has been going on for hundreds of years so we cannot expect that to change. There was once a fourth estate that kept us at least informed but that has gone away with our totally biased media. It was the news media that exposed nixon and the news media that touted shiff and his campaign about trump and russia. It was the media who exposed clinton and his sexual abuse but gave the FBI a free ride on the hunter scandal.
Trump announced he is running and the media is 24/7 about condemning him. DeSantis announced he is running and the media is 24/7 about condemning him, joey b is putting us into a recession, responsible for the debacle in Afghanistan, hundreds dying because of the border crisis and the press praises his judgement. It is not about which side is right but is just about equal and fair representation by the media.
skud: "His punishment is going to be determined by our totally corrupt legal system so there will be more to follow."
Absurd statement.
Do you actually believe what you wrote, then anyone who's been convicted by a jury of his or her peers has been sentenced for their crimes by an unjust and "totally corrupt legal system?"
So Harvey Weinstein, having been convicted for his dozens of rapes is the victim of a "totally corrupt legal system?"
Elizabeth Holmes, founder of Thanos and convicted of fraud is a victim of a "totally corrupt legal system?"
People who've been convicted of murder, rape, theft, fraud, etc., have all been found guilty by "an unjust and totally corrupt legal system?"
Where is hard evidence for that statement? Just saying it doesn't make it so. You and Trump's cultists are angry because the law caught up with him.
Read the damn indictment and read Trump in his own words telling someone that the docs he's showing them are secret; and since he's no longer president, he can't declassify them.
Are you and Trump's cultists p.o.ed because the law caught up with him? So, therefore, the law is totally corrupt, and not Trump who ALLEGEDLY committed the crimes a grand jury of American citizens believed, after seeing the EVIDENCE? You actually believe all the Americans sitting on those grand juries are corrupt? And Trump is the victim?
JHC! It is no wonder this country is messed up!
The legal system extends beyond the courts and judges. How can we allow a judge to sit on a trial for someone who appointed them to the job. How can one federal judge change a law affecting millions. We take the word of a FBI director who has been proven to be a liar but we don't put faith in a border patrol chief and an entire federal agency involved in a cover up or at least negligence. I hope you know that the majority of grand juries will go along with a DA but it does keep the courts less crowded.
Now we have a president that admits illegals into the country with a trial date in five years, that is just stupid. The obsession and focus on trump is concerning because it diverts attention from the total failure of the administration to manage the country but I guess diverting attention is their plan and they are succeeding.
Skud... Thanks.
As for trump and his punishment, no, it will be determined by the "Totally corrupt legal system."
Any punishment for Trump will be mandated by the applicable statutes that have been approved in legislation by Congress.
As for these charges, it works like this... If you are guilty of A, here is the prescribed punishment for crime A. There are federal statutes for each and every charge.
As for media bias, that of course Skud inserted to muddy the Trump violated the US Espionage Act theme of the post, consider this...
As it relates to cable news, the real space where we see extreme partisan news wrangling, the best numbers we have show that on average, Fox News more than doubles the total of MSNBC and CNN.
I know some believe the evening new casts of CBS, ABC and NBC are also hopelessly partisan also, but those are mostly the Fox News, if it ain't showing what i want to see, it's in the tank, liberal biased news.
Besides, in a country of over 350,000,000 people, how much impact can 30 minutes of news, watched by at most 9.5 million watch 5 days a week have?
Is there bias?
Of course, but go to the Mothership to understand what constitutes bias and truth. If you disagree with their view, or show facts that reflect badly on conservatives or Trump, you are a liberal in the tank, dirty liars and nasty.
PS. I forgot to point out that the indictment, which I'm pretty sure skudrunner and Trump cultists have NOT read, is full of evidence attested to UNDER OATH! by TRUMP'S PEOPLE, not Democrats, but people who worked for and aided Trump, INCLUDING HIS LAWYER AND TRUMP HIMSELF on audio tape .
Let me repeat. The evidence that a grand jury of Floridians heard was, in part, evidence from audio tapes with Trump himself speaking about NOT having declassified top secret docs.
And people like skud -- there's millions of them -- blame our system of justice and claim it is "totally corrupt" because it worked they way it was meant to work in indicting someone like Trump.
This excruciatingly idiotic reaction is what's wrong with 40% of this country -- NOT drag queen shows and pride parades.
Here's how former Trump AG Bill Barr, a pure RINO I suppose puts it...
“This idea of presenting Trump as a victim here or a victim of a witch hunt is ridiculous... Yes, he’s been a victim in the past. His adversaries have obsessively pursued him with phony claims. And I’ve been at his side defending against them when he is a victim. But this is much different. He’s not a victim here. He was totally wrong that he had the right to have those documents. Those documents are among the most sensitive secrets that the country has. They have to be in the custody of the archivist. He had no right to maintain them and retain them.”
I follow a Twin Cities newspaper online since it is my hometown and I am thinking of possibly retiring back there. The comments on the stories about trump are mindblowingly idiotic. One person talked about how sick they are about the "weaponization of the justice system" and how New York extended the statute so survivors of rape/assault cases could file beyond the deadline, JUST so that E. Jean Carroll could file her case against trump. Honestly makes me question if I should even think of moving back...
Possumlady, Dave M.,Les, skud:
It is depressingly consistent for Trumpers to divert attention from what Trump has done to a subject not connected to the crimes he has been indicted for.
The border and our government's inability to solve that problem has exactly ZERO to do with the 37 felony counts presented by the Grand Jury against Trump.
Instead of discussing that, skud and Trump cultists bring up problems administrations (Ds and Rs) have been facing for decades.
I guess I can understand why that is. We've just witnessed an historic indictment of a former POTUS and candidate, again, for the US presidency, by the federal government on 37 felony counts, and this same former POTUS and candidate for the presidency has 34 felony counts against him in the state of New York, where he was also found liable in a sexual assault case.
If I were a Republican, I guess I too would not want to admit that my party supports a man of such low and vile character. I would not want to admit being part of any organization that promotes the worst of the worst to head our country. I'd probably want to change the subject and divert attention away from the disaster that is Trump.
And yet that's what the current GOP and its leaders, save for one or two, is doing.
What Liz Cheney said: "One day Trump will be gone, but your dishonor will remain."
Millions of Americans will remember that the Party of Lincoln debased itself by supporting Trump.
Off topic, but did anyone catch Lindsey Graham on CNN this afternoon? It was a combination of comical and sad. Watching him twist himself into a pretzel with his "logic" arguing equivalency between Trump's actions and, wait for it, HCR and Hunter Biden. Lindsey Graham and illogic 101.
Ms. Shaw, Trump will face his day in court and we will see what happens. What republican politicians face is totally different that what democrat politicians face. The republican candidates are running on a platform of law and order yet they say trump was treated unfairly and even though he admitted to the crime he should be let go. The democrats don't face that issue because in their cities and their platform there is no law and order is just a word. Let anyone stealing under a grand go, beat up a transit worker and let them go cross the border because you say you will show up for a hearing in five years, let them go. Just think how many new democrats there will be in five years when they are given voting rights.
Eugene Robinson wrote an opinion piece in The Washington Post about Republicans and their gnashing of teeth over the trump indictment and Robinson used the term "performative anger". I shall use that phrase often as it is JUST what it is...
skud, please get back on your meds because your last statements are beyond just a gross generalization. Either that or you're so beyond being in touch with actual reality irs hopeless.
At the very least, each and every American should take a sober look at this and ask themselves this question...
If the charges are true and can be proven, what should be our response.
That's it... plain and simple.
And then wait for the outcome. Sad, or divisive as it may be.
skud again proves their constant diet of right wing talking points. The righteous right are so persecuted and the heathen left are allowed to do what they want. The horrors, amirite?
Their narrative might have worked back in the day but here/now? Yeah, no.
And again with the bigoted trope of criminals are pouring over the border. Facts skud or it never happened. Bring your receipts, your evidence, your arrest records, newspaper write ups, facts.
Right now when I read your comments skud all I hear is the buzz of panicked Nationalist Christians watching their influence fade away. Truly it is a beautiful thing.
Possumlady, Les, Dave M., and Grey One talks sass, and skudrunner:
Once again, for those in the back who may not have heard (I'm speaking to you, skud):
"While many Republicans, including House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, have argued that the Justice Department is treating the 45th president differently than it has Democrats who have been investigated over possible mishandling of national security secrets, the Trump indictment itself helps explain the difference between his case and other high-profile probes, like those of Hillary Clinton, President Biden and former vice president Mike Pence — not for what it charges, but for what it doesn’t.
Notably, Trump’s indictment does not charge him with the illegal retention of any of the 197 documents he returned to the archives.
That shows that if Trump had simply returned all the classified documents he had, he probably never would have been charged with any crimes, said Robert Mintz, a former federal prosecutor.
“This is not a case about what documents were taken, it’s about what former president Trump did after the government sought to retrieve those documents,” said Mintz, who noted that willful-retention cases often hinge on how much evidence prosecutors can find that a person deliberately hid material or refused to give it back.
The indictment offers anecdote after alleged anecdote charging that the former president sought to hide and keep some of the classified papers, so much so that Trump and Walt Nauta, a trusted aide who was indicted alongside Trump, are accused of conspiring to obstruct the investigation and scheming to conceal the truth not just from the government, but even from Trump’s own lawyer."
Do you see the difference now, skud? Or will you continue to pretend it's only Trump who's been targeted?
I doubt Skud will take the time to read this and have to confront his deeply held beliefs and biases, regarding the differences between Trump's and Hillary's cases but here's a great explanation.
This is the money quote, Dave M.:
"ANY PERSON who has illegally retained OR transported ,OR copied , OR disclosed sensitive/secret documents must be indicted and prosecuted,"
Trump is being prosecuted for lying about it and obstructing the government's attempt to retrieve documents.
Neither Pence or Biden did either of those things.
Trump apologists refuse to read and understand that part of the law. Oh, and Hillary Clinton's emails were not covered under the Presidential Records Act.
Also, I'm pretty sure that the Trump apologists didn't bother to read this either:
"Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice used private accounts for classified emails
Hillary Clinton’s campaign has seized on findings that Rice and Powell were sent sensitive national security information to nongovernment email addresses"
Were either of them hounded by Congress for doing so?
Regarding Hillary...
Look, what she did was stupid and idiotic politically.
But when the State Dept knocked on the door, she had her lawyer turn over the relevant stuff and she cooperated with State. As did Pence, as did Biden.
Again, for the people who just can't seem to understand plain English, it's the obstruction and cover up.
The archivist sent a letter to Trump asking for the docs to be returned. He said no. They asked again. He said no. They sent a subpoena, he said ignored it. They followed up, he told his ppl to hide the documents. They visited him personally, he lied about what he had.
Does anyone named Skud, Frank, Tom, Salvatore, Susann or Anon see any difference?
I doubt it.
Hopeless...
The Trump defense of choice is NOT I didnt do anything wrong, it's that others also did something wrong. Because of course a person can't be responsible if others got away with the same crimes (yes I know the others did't do the same thing, which is why they weren't charged but in Trumplandia, just keep lying).
That said I'm thinking there are a slew of murderers, bank robbers, insider traders, heck even child molesters out there wanting to use that same argument (no one is arresting/charging all the old priests, so why can't I molest kids under my care and have my bosses cover it up?).
Rev, I will just assume you haven't had the time to process my responses but trump is guilty by his own admission. I will give you that pence turned over the documents once he was asked and so did joey b, a decade later but he did turn them over. As to -H- once she was under the microscope instead of turning them over he deleted them from her non approved hard drive so who knows what she had and what was passed on. I guess we should believe her even after it has been discovered she paid for the steele document. "A Russian analyst who worked on a dossier that made unsubstantiated claims linking Donald Trump to the Kremlin has been arrested in the US" From BBC not WAPO.
Trump should get at least the same punishment as the AF guy who kept classified documents. I believe it was three years. One of the issues we face is that it will take six years to get past all the appeals and by that time he will be non-relevant even to the democrat party.
Lets look at the positive side and nominate a candidate who can govern for all the people instead of just the special interest groups like obama/biden.
Reality calling skudrunner:
Hillary Clinton was NEVER INDICTED for any crime, even during the Trump administration when AG Barr was his lap dog.
This burns the posteriors of Republicans. But that's the way it is.
Donald Trump has been indicted TWICE and found libelous for sexual harassment and is facing more criminal charges for the J6 insurrection and his illegal interference in Georgia's 2020 presidential election results.
But go ahead and whine about Hillary, WHO HAS NEVER BEEN INDICTED FOR ANY CRIME.
"Donald Trump has been indicted TWICE"
Just in case YOU need a lesson in Law Shaw.
Being INDICTED IS ONLY AN ACCUSATION, it is not Being "Guilty" of a crime or anything else.
Thank You. Just so you know!
Shaw - not only did Hillary follow Standard Operating Procedures in dealing with hardware and data in effect at that time, she (and by extension her husband) has been investigated for over thirty years. Each decade out comes some wet behind the ears GOP candidate desperate to make their bones by taking down a large target.
The GOP "KNOWS" she's guilty (of being a powerful woman who refused to play the politics game by their rules) so therefore she must have done something, isn't that how our judicial system works? (/S)
skud constantly claims to be independent but their target fixation on Hillary, Hillary, Hillary reveals more than they know.
Also I have a question or two for those simple minds who continue to hold Hillary accountable to rules enacted AFTER she left office - do you understand how time works? Perhaps you have a time machine? A TARDIS? An Asgard time drive? Inquiring minds are enquiring.
I think skud probably needs to visit Tibet for say three to five years. If he studied hard enough he might come home recognizing reality as well as the essence and nature of mind (empty cognizance). A long shot but it just might enlighten him.
Crusader Frank,
Here's something you may not know:
When a person is indicted, they are given formal notice that it is believed that they committed a crime. The indictment contains the basic information that informs the person of the charges against them.
Being charged means an individual is accused of committing a crime, whereas being indicted means that a grand jury has found enough evidence to formally charge them with the said crime.
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