The shooter has been identified as an American citizen of Afghan heritage who was strongly anti-gay, according to the father of the killer, as reported on CBS news.
It is too early to determine whether this was a jihadist terror crime or anti-gay or both.
UPDATE:
From (O)CT(O)PUS of The Swash Zone:
BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS
57 comments:
And the B.O. administration continues to shove LGBT AND RESTROOMS IN OUR FACE while turning a blind eye to RADICAL ISLAM, the latter so adverse to the former. This is just one more example of the insanity we have had to endure for the past >7 years. Why, in the World, would any thinking person want more of this derangement?
Yes, the administration which tracked down and killed bin Laden and has been bombing Dâ'ish (ISIL) for two years is "turning a blind eye to radical Islam".
Maybe Shaw should implement a minimum IQ requirement (say, at least into double digits) for commenting here.
Jon, let's see if we can follow your comment's logic:
The reason the shooter shot and killed the people in the Orlando gay bar is because the Supreme Court, during the Obama administration, ruled in favor of civil rights for a minority? What exactly got "shoved" in your face and the face of an Islamic jihadist (if that's what the shooter was)? And the ruling by the Supreme Court in favor of equality for a minority is "insanity" that you've had to "endure for the past>7 years? And you believe equal rights for minorities is a form of "derangement?
Do you think killing random people, freely enjoying a night of dancing and music is a form of derangement?
How about someone who comes to a blog and blames members of the LGBT community for their own deaths, simply because the SCOTUS ruled that they deserved the equality our Constitution guarantees?
You sound angry and don't know where to focus that anger. Get help.
Thank you Infidel753, that was going to be the second part of my response to "Jon."
Just remember that the people telling us to hate all Muslim because of Omar Mateen are the same ones fighting for Mateen and others like him to have easy access to assault weapons.
Shaw, the "Jon" comment came from AOW's blog. Whether it's the real JonBerg or a copy and paster is unknown.
JonBergJune 12, 2016 at 12:05:00 PM EDT
So the B.O. administration continues to shove LGBT AND RESTROOMS IN OUR FACE while turning a blind eye to RADICAL ISLAM, the latter so adverse to the former. This is just one more example of the insanity we have had to endure for the past >7 years. Why, in the World, would any thinking person want more of this derangement?
Reply
Replies
ARoTPB
The "Jon" troll came back several times to complain that I didn't understand his comment and that he didn't blame the LGBT community for their own deaths. But logically, he did. He claimed the Obama administration was "shoving" the LGBT AND RESTROOMS in our face. It wasn't just the Obama administration that supported LGBT rights, but the SCOTUS as well. "Jon" implies that the "shoving" is what caused this, while "turning a blind eye to RADICAL ISLAM."
Infidel753 instructed the low-information troll, "Jon" on the fact that the Obama administration has been bombing ISIL for years -- that's hardly turning a blind eye, but "Jon" isn't very bright, as you can see from his hysterical and incoherent comment.
I don't know if the comment came from a copy and paster or the real "Jon," but we do know it was typical rabid right wing stupidity.
Sorry to upset your conspiracy theories Anoumousie, but ailments the same Jon.
A Muslim terrorist shoots and kills 50 in Orlando. Obama attacks U.S. gun owners.
Muslim terrorists shoot and kill 14 in San Bernadino. Obama attacks U.S. gun owners.
Muslim terrorist shoots and kills 4 in Tennessee. Obama attacks U.S. gun owners.
Muslim terrorists shoot and kill over 100 in Paris. Obama attacks U.S. gun owners.
Muslim terrorist shoots and kills 13 at Ft. Hood TX. And both Hillary and Obama attacks U.S. gun owners...
*ANYONE SEE A TREND HERE???*
I DO!
He/she/it reminds me of tRump. No substance, and, as you point out nothing original.
"typical rabid right wing stupidity."
Is that your answers to everything that you disagree with???
So it goes. Vonnegut said it best.
The media is falling all over itself to make this guy part of an ISIS cell.
The idea that he was stoked up by the current Drumpf hate climate isn't much of a discussion topic.
Why he needed high capacity AR-15 clips was never asked. The guy was known to be abusive to his wife who left him due to abuse but he has no problem getting an AR with a high capacity magazine.
It's armed camp America. You can be part of a large scale mass shooting going to a movie, attending kindergarten, in a college classroom or just out clubbing.
I don't have an answer but more guns is a fools way to go.
I hope the loved ones of the victims have a way to find solace.
I'm wondering how far the apple fell from the tree: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/12/orlando-shooting-suspects-father-hosted-a-political-tv-show-and-even-tried-to-run-for-the-afghan-presidency/
"Jon said...
"typical rabid right wing stupidity."
Is that your answers to everything that you disagree with???"
No. That's my answer to rabid right wing comments posted here.
Ducky: "I don't have an answer but more guns is a fools way to go."
It is folly. But the GOPers in Congress are determined to be fools:
TERRORIST WATCH LIST NO BAR TO BUYING GUNS
Kevin,
Poo-Tee-Weet
"I think that Obama mentioned gun control in his speech."
And why shouldn't he? Did anyone read the link Shaw left above?
Hey Jon of the John,
The only one shoving LGBT restrooms in your face is yourself. So fixated you are on all things John, you can't get your face out of the toilet. It's people like you who amp up the rhetoric on hate, you are fuse that triggers the bomb and unleashes the terror. There's blood on your hands, Jon of the John, Jonberg, or whatever you call yourself.
With editorial corrections.
Early AM comment: It is to early to tell if this is a jihadist terror crime or an anti gay crime or both.
It is always better to refrain from passing judgement until all the investigative work is completed.
What we do know is regardless of motive it was an act of terror/terrorism. An act resulting in the greatest loss of life in a single mass shooting thus far in the USA.
5:49 PM comment: It is all so tedious. There is no rational explanation for humankind. Simply none whatsoever.
Rather than a rational discussion aimed at understanding the problem by ALL, read primarily rightwingers, we spend our time pointing fingers and jockeying for political position and superiority.
Is there no end?
A Muslim terrorist shoots and kills 50 in Orlando.
Johnny poisons the neighbor’s dog.
Muslim terrorists shoot and kill 14 in San Bernadino.
Johnny bashes his father with a baseball bat.
Muslim terrorist shoots and kills 4 in Tennessee.
Johnny stabs his mamma with a butcher knife.
Muslim terrorists shoot and kill over 100 in Paris.
Johnny buggers, then strangles his baby sister.
Muslim terrorist shoots and kills 13 at Ft. Hood TX.
Johnny buries their bodies in the basement.
*ANYONE SEE A TREND HERE???*
JOHNNY IS OFF HIS MEDS AGAIN.
Ya see, Johnny. Anyone can make up crap.
How does a Supreme Court ruling on restroom choice by certain individuals somehow "validate" taking up firearms and killing 50 people?
Does this "Jon" person even have...I.. I can't even parse this. Does this "Jon" person post this..this...******p for some sort of sick entertainment?
..perhaps it won't become clear to you until you hear... the crack of the shots,
from a direction where your loved ones were present, in a public place.
You would dash over on shaky feet, and you would see the bodies, lying on dark black
asphalt, in pools of red, dark red.
Your eyes would find your loved ones, lying, hardly moving, and
making wet sounds as their pain-wracked bodies
writhe, and as you dash forward, your breath short, your heart pounding,
no please no, no!! You try to speak to them!!, their eyes focusing
on you, trying to speak as you hold them in your hands, your arms, as the ground
beneath them catches the red, the dark red..
You don't recognize your voice as you speak to your loved ones, watching
their eyes focus on you, and then, you tremble as their eyes go blank,
completely blank, and the red, the dark red comes out, oozing now, out of their bodies.
You hear another voice, and sounds like a primal scream of someone in
mortal anguish. Your continue to hear the voice cry as you glance at your
hands with the red, the dark red, sticky and warm, and then less sticky and
cold, on your fingers. It is only in that instant, in that heartbeat, in those
cold nanoseconds, that you will understand the epic breadth and depth
of your loss, and you hear that voice scream louder when your mind
comprehends your treasure, your loved ones, ....
that a man with a firearm, has robbed, extinguished, and stolen from you.
You recognize the screaming voice...as your own.
In the days afterwards, you see the
man who took all from you, smiling and laughing, during his trial.
You realize that the pain, the numbing loss, the anguish..
that the laughing man has inflicted on you was his goal.
He is smiling and laughing as he is sentenced. Still smiling. Still laughing.
He used a firearm to do his work.
You now know...
And the words, "gun control"
have a totally different meaning to you, now.
The right keeps falsely claiming that Obama wants to take all guns away.
It's time to make that lie a reality. It takes three quarters of the States and Congressional approval to amend the Constitution. Get busy!
Shaw, here is an extremist's rabid right winger's idea of how to solve the mass shootings that take place in this country -- especially mass shootings by Muslims:
"First, no more Muslims admitted to the USA until the threat of terrorism ceases.
Second, round up all suspected terrorists, terrorist wannabes, terrorist sympathizers and terrorist sponsors. Deport the foreigners back to their home countries, throw the American suspects in jail without bail & try every one them for treason, convict them & then execute them.
Third, rebuild our military, remove the BS rules of engagement & go over to the Middle East & wipe out ISIS, completely annihilate them, leave no one alive!
Fourth, maintain a strong military presence over there & take their damn oil to pay for it.
Enough of this carnage!"
That is the thinking of a radical right wing nut. So that person would be okay with fundamentally changing America and turn it into a police state with a dictator in charge. This is why Trump appeals to people with simple minds.
The Constitution would have to be violated in order to carry out the totalitarian actions this rabid radical right winger proposes. Again, the same people who say Obama is "wiping his ass" with the Constitution propose violating it to fight terrorism. Do they even understand this?
No where does this rabid radical right wing nut suggest not allowing bi-polar wife abusers or people on a terrorist watch list to be able to purchase guns. In fact the GOP congress defeated a bill to not allow people on terrorist watch lists to purchase automatic weapons.
I am not persuaded by motivated reasoning. I read the same news and hear the same media reports, yet form my own conclusions. Historically low crime statistics are irrelevant when specific crimes and accidental deaths are preventable.
In 2016, over 100 children killed themselves or other family members after finding unsecured weapons. The NRA has fought legislation mandating safety locks and secure gun storage.
The shooter worked as a security guard with a carry permit and access to guns. We also learned of domestic abuse; his former wife reported regular beatings. The NRA has fought legislation that would confiscate weapons owned by domestic abusers. Shall we ignore this point?
The shooter armed himself with an AR-15 assault rifle — the same weapon used in the Sandy Hook and San Bernardino shootings. A law banning sales of this weapon expired years ago. Yet Congressional Republicans blocked reinstatement of this law. Does cognitive bias blind us?
Furthermore, the NRA lobbied Congressional Republicans to defund research by the CDC on causes of gun deaths in America.
Finally, here is one more point buried beneath the media noise: CNN reported an arrest in West Hollywood, California, during a gay parade. Police found an arsenal of weapons including an assault rifle and pipe bombs.
Anti-gay messaging and anti-Muslim rhetoric conspire to up the ante on hate speech. Dead bodies and grieving families are not numbers. They deserve more than deceptive, self-serving soundbites and decades of legislative inaction.
Donald Trump suggested that President Obama sympathizes with Islamic terrorists in another fascistic harangue after the Orlando massacre. All Trump needs now is a balcony.
One thing is certain, Trump is saying EXACTLY what the rabid radicals on the right have been saying since Mr. Obama became president -- that Mr. Obama sides with the terrorists because he's a secret Muslim. Trump has tapped into their paranoia, ignorance, and xenophobia, and his demagogic rants are all they need to reinforce their dangerous bigotry.
Trump is a monster who has found his true home with the TeaPublicans.
A right winger writes:
"Islam is virulently and murderously homophobic..."
Yes. That is true.
And so is this:
aThis Christian pastor wants to exterminate gays for an ‘Aids-free Christmas’
'Kill the Gays' Preacher Kevin Swanson: God's on His Side
Pastor Kevin Swanson is taking a victory lap after his headline-making National Religious Liberties Conference in Iowa earlier this month. After hosting Republican presidential candidates Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee, and Bobby Jindal (who since left the race), the Colorado preacher who calls for gays who don’t repent to be sentenced to death went on radio to reflect on the “media firestorm” he created.
James Dobson: Kill Transgender People Using Public Bathrooms
May 31, 2016
Evangelist James Dobson says transgender people using public bathrooms should be shot.
In an anti-Obama rant the Focus on the Family founder said that transgender people using public restrooms should be shot. Writing for World Net Daily Dobson complained about President Obama’s order to “every public school in America to open all its bathroom facilities including those that are in use by a member of the opposite sex.” Dobson wrote.
Charles L. Worley, North Carolina Pastor: Put Gays And Lesbians In Electrified Pen To Kill Them Off
The pastor, identified on YouTube as Charles L. Worley of Providence Road Baptist Church in Maiden, N.C., condemns President Obama’s much-publicized endorsement of same-sex marriage while calling for gays and lesbians to be put in an electrified pen and ultimately killed off.
“Build a great, big, large fence — 150 or 100 mile long — put all the lesbians in there,” Worley suggests in the clip, reportedly filmed on May 13.
He continues: “Do the same thing for the queers and the homosexuals and have that fence electrified so they can’t get out...and you know what, in a few years, they’ll die out...do you know why? They can’t reproduce!”
He also said that if he’s asked who he’ll vote for, he’ll reply, “I’m not going to vote for a baby killer and a homosexual lover!” Many of the congregants cheer and reply, “Amen.”
Worley added, “It makes me pukin’ sick to think about — I don’t even whether or not to say this in the pulpit — can you imagine kissing some man?”
The above virulent homophobia comes to you from Christians. The problem is radical religionist who spread fear and hate and ignorance. The "Christian" pastor who said from the pulpit, "Canl you imagine kissing some man," echoes what the crazed Orlando shooter's father said -- that Mateen was sickened by seeing two men kissing.
Let's not forget the Texas Lt Gov who tweeted about the Orlando shooting being divine retribution...
I am convinced that the types of people don't speak of, nor share, the Christianity I know.
When I was little kid, in a sleepy little valley east of Los Angeles, I grew up in one of two churches in the whole area that stood in favor of eliminating the practice of Red Lining, whereby real estate folks drew a line around certain parts of the community as as to prevent minorities from buying homes there.
I also remember hearing a message on the teaching of Jesus to "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." When the sermon was finished, the pastor began to pray for the North Vietnamese. As this was in the mid 60's, you can imagine how people dealt with the clear biblical teaching when it collided with their desires. Many just got up, walked out, and went across town to another church that would never pray that prayer. In spite of Jesus teachings.
None of these folks represent the Christianity I know, and the God I choose to worship.
But they are there, sadly showering the people with hate, indifference, intolerance and none of the love they profess to have in their hearts for people created in God's image.
Shameful...
Dave: "I am convinced that the types of people don't speak of, nor share, the Christianity I know."
My niece is a member of one of the oldest Christian congregations in Massachusetts, a church that was founded in Colonial times. Four years ago her pastor announced to the congregation that the church would begin to perform same sex marriage (this was, of course, before the SCOTUS's ruling). One quarter of the church's congregation left the church. What is heartening, I think, is that 3/4 of the congregants agreed with the pastor's new decision and stayed. I've attended memorial services there for members of my family.
The pastors and members of their flock who suggest killing people of the LGBT community have more in common with radical Islamists than they know, yet they say the most slanderous things about Mr. Obama having sympathy for terrorists?
I can understand why the president does not use the term "radical Islam" in discussing these massacres. Apparently, the crazed rabid radical righties have no idea of how a careful and measured president of ALL AMERICANS deals with volatile situations like this.
Just got this in an email.
Thank you, R.D.
Sicko Christian Pastor Celebrates The Massacre of 50 LGBTQ People In Florida Bar
The right is absolutely unwilling to admit that a climate of homophobia had anything to do with this massacre.
Drumpf's speech tonight should be a doozie.
Trump is speaking right now, and he's using a teleprompter and probably other people's words. He's quite subdued. But he's continuing to use the term "radical Islamic terrorist."
He's talking about stopping Muslims from coming into the country again.
The shooter in Orlando was an American citizen. How will he stop American lone shooters?
He can't, but he won't address that. He's pandering to people's hatreds.
Trump is doing his usual lying. He's saying Hillary is coming for your guns. LIE.
Also, the idiot said the Orlando shooter's father was born in Afghan. JERK.
What a contrast between Hillary's speech earlier and this carnival barker's harangue.
He speaks like a 3rd grader.
I don't know why he is being referred to as a radical Islamic terrorist. He is a product of homegrown terrorism and this was a case of work place violence.
This can all be blamed on the right wing extremists and not the fact that Muslims do not accept gays and even kill them in their own country.
The leader was great in his speech. No emotion and calling for tighter gun control and placing blame on the religious right.
-H- went off the rails calling him an radical islamic terrorist. Bet she will get a stern talking to.
Guess you'll be voting for tRump The Demagogue then eh skudrunner?
tRump is doing an effective job of creating great division in America. All the while claiming he is a unifier and people love him.
tRump is your man if one eye is closed, both ears blocked, and the mind is set on idle.
skud: "I don't know why he is being referred to as a radical Islamic terrorist. He is a product of homegrown terrorism and this was a case of work place violence."
SK: A perfect example of Trumpian twaddle. No one has claimed this was a case of workplace violence, since the shooter never worked at Pulse. What's wrong with you?
skud: This can all be blamed on the right wing extremists and not the fact that Muslims do not accept gays and even kill them in their own country.
SK: Read my post for today, June 14. There are many, many Christian pastors who call for the murders and deaths of gay people. Thankfully, those calls for death of the LGBT community is not coded in our laws, but it is dangerous because pastors, who often say god is talking to them, pass their ignorance and hatred onto their gullible flocks. Convenient of you to ignore the extremist Christian LGBT haters, isn't it.
skud: "The leader was great in his speech. No emotion and calling for tighter gun control and placing blame on the religious right."
Either produce evidence of that last "blaming" smear or we'll see this as another Trumpian-type of lie. You and Trump are soulmates when it comes to obfuscating, exaggerating, and just plain lying.
Hillary will beat Trump's puny arse. She showed herself to be presidential yesterday, and Trump showed himself to be a sickening self-absorbed, thin-skinned lying bully.
RN, skud and Trump are soulmates.
I will have to assume you didn't watch BHO read his speech after the tragedy or maybe you fell asleep. There was zero emotion and his standard broken sentence presentation. His standard speech on gun control but what wasn't mentioned is we need to do a better job of monitoring our enemy's and put aside some of our PC.
I was thinking about the Fort Hood shootings that was workplace violence and got the two confused.
We all need to applaud -H- yesterday when she said something BHO has not uttered, radical Islamist.
There is no doubt -H- will beat Trump and we will have four more years of no economic growth and nothing accomplished for the majority of the American people.
I just wish we had a choice.
People who think beyond sound bites understand why the president does not want to use "Islamist terrorists."
There are approximately 1.3 BILLION Muslims in the world. And right now there are Muslims fighting Muslims in the M.E. We NEED Muslims to help us fight the extremists who are causing all the trouble, therefore, reasonable people understand it's probably not a good idea to insult and demonize the very people who we need to help us fight the terrorists. Not all Muslims are terrorists, if they were, we'd all be dead by now because they overwhelmingly outnumber us. Use your noggin.
President Obama has bombed more terrorists in the Middle East than any other president before him -- much to the chagrin of many far lefties. That's hardly weak as the monkey-brained, thin-skinned racist bully claims -- but then Drumpf rarely knows what the hell he's talking about anyway, and his gullible supporters don't care, as long as he waves his little hands around, pretending he's got what it takes to be a preznit.
I have an idea, skud, why don't you try digging further than Breitbart or FAUX NOOZ to get your talking points? A wise person once said the truth will set you free. What've you got to loose, except your biases?
I don't watch either but thanks for the advise.
Using your and the liberal agendas logic very few semi-automatic rifles are used in violent attacks but lets ban them all.
The past two administrations have created a very unstable M.E so it is no wonder that PRESBO has had to bomb more than any president before him.
Maybe we had taken a different tact in Syria, Egypt, Libya, reducing forces in Afghanistan and Iraq, the M.E. would be more stable.
skudrunner, it is not easy to push oneself out of the box (paradigms) that one has spent a good part of ones life in. It can be done however if one is really interested in growing and experiencing reality from an expanded and enlightened vantage point.
Everyone has biases, the challenge lies in identifying them and then moving on to truth.
Indeed Shaw, the truth will set you free. Finding truth is really a lifelong endeavor.
RN
Was that you or did someone hijack your name. Except for all the one and ones you sounded rational, confused but rational. Was it Confucius or Buddha who said the truth will set you free. Remember "chaos is inherent in all compounded things" (Buddha)
We have two candidates to choose from and neither one is qualified to be president of the country. One because he is a buffoon and one because she is a lying criminal. Both parties have put themselves in this position and we are the ones who will pay the price. The Republicans allowed so many candidates a place at the podium and diluted the vote so 30% was a winner. The democrats promised -H- the next nomination after BHO is finished if she will step aside in 2008. She could not win against a sane candidate but against trump, she is a shoe in. Bernie kinda threw her a curve ball because she should have received he crown months ago. DNC didn't see that coming.
skud: "One because he is a buffoon and one because she is a lying criminal."
First: By definition, a criminal is someone who's been convicted of a crime. Hillary has not been convicted of a crime, therefore, she is not a criminal. So stop spreading that sort of slander here.
Second: The Constitution's only requirements for someone to be president is that he or she be a natural born American and that he or she be 35 years of age. Period. We understand you don't like Hillary, but that doesn't change the fact that she's one of THE MOST qualified candidates to ever seek the office of the presidency.
Consider this the last time you post slander about her. If you have an argument against her, present it with facts. Otherwise, you sound like Donald Trump.
Shaw,
Not to be argumentative, which of course I am not ever, perhaps you can answer a question even her staff can't. What makes her so qualified. If it was being a Senator, what bill did she write? If it was as SS, what did she accomplish. These are questions no one can seem to answer but, you being all knowledgeable, what did she accomplish?
Even though her major initiative, the Clinton healthcare plan, failed (due to Republican obstruction), you cannot deny that it laid ground for what we have today, the Affordable Healthcare Act, something Clinton supports and would continue.
She played a leading role in the development of State Children’s Health Insurance Program, which provides the much-needed state support for children whose parents cannot afford nor provide them with adequate healthcare coverage.
She was also instrumental in the creation of the Adoption and Safe Families Act and the Foster Care Independence Act.
Successfully fought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and asthma at the National Institute of Health (NIH).
She spearheaded investigations into mental illness plaguing veterans of the Gulf War; we now have a term for it – Gulf War Syndrome.
At the Department of Justice, she helped create the office on Violence Against Women.
She was instrumental in securing over $21 billion in funding for the World Trade Center redevelopment.
Took a leading role in the investigation of health consequences of first responders and drafted the first bill to compensate and offer the health services our first responders deserve (Clinton’s successor in the Senate, Kirsten Gillibrand, passed the bill).
Was instrumental in working out a bi-partisan compromise to address civil liberty abuses for the renewal of the U.S. Patriot Act.
Proposed a revival of the New Deal-era Home Owners’ Loan Corporation to help homeowners refinance their mortgages in the wake of the 2008 financial disaster.
Was a major proponent of sensible diplomacy which brought about a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel, and brokered human rights with Burma.
Oversaw free trade agreements with our allies such as Panama, Colombia, and South Korea.
Was the most traveled Secretary of State to date.
The Clinton Foundation, founded by her and her husband, has improved the living conditions for nearly 400 million people in over 180 countries through its Initiative program.
These are not all of her accomplishments. Her activism on behalf of women a children across the world is renowned.
Her activism for raising the minimum wage and combating climate change is stellar. You do not have to support what she does or stands for. But do not say she doesn’t have any accomplishments.
OK skud. There is your list. Since you say she did nothing, let's see your point by point rebuttal of these items. My guess is that you can't do it. Come on, prove me wrong.
So skudrunner, given your self perceived wisdom what would be your choice between the only two individuals with a chance of winning. Inquiring minds want to know.
JC, Proposed, Oversaw free trade, was the most traveled SS and the kicker was the clinton foundation that uses a whopping 10% of donations to aid the needy. Willie said they need the rest to live. Activity VS productivity are two different things.
RN, Since I cannot in all good conscience vote for Thrump and will not under any circumstances vote for -H- I guess I will have to write in. Thinking along the lines of Jerry Critter.
skud,
Rarely, if ever, do we think along the same lines.
JC
I consider that a good thing for both of us
There's a perfect example skud. I think it is a good thing for me and an unfortunate thing for you.
Looks like you'll be electing HRC by default then skudrunner.
Not that Jerry wouldn't be a better choice than either.
If elected, I will not serve! So, you better get me a good Vice President
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