It is not we need to get out it is we should have had plans on how. He read that they had plans for every contingency and it does appear they utilized none of those plans. Can't blame poor joey because I doubt he had a clue we were abandoning the people of Afghanistan but he really needs better handlers.
Not all of the DNC networks are supportive of what took place so that is the first push back biden has had. I'm sure this will blow over in a short period of time because the DNC owns the media and they drive opinions.
Skud... we followed the plans Pres Trump set in motion. He set the date, and even publicized it. Maybe you can remember when Obama set a date certain for withdrawal from Iraq that conservatives openly mocked him for declaring our intentions publicly and putting US lives at risk.
I've got to wonder why you and your fellow Mothership sailors were not as incensed when Pres Trump set that public date?
Biden made a decision. It didn't all go as planned. He took responsibility, explained his actions to the American people and has set a new path forward.
Did Pres Trump ever do that once during his admin when things he planned didn't go as hoped?
I'll save you time. The answer is no. He did not. Ever.
I'll take Biden's approach, much like presidents before him, any day.
Biden's decision is the absolute correct decision. It should have been made 10 years ago, if not sooner. So, there is much blame to pass around for the stupid decisions this nation has made (by 4 presidents) relative to Afghanistan.
Rather than point GD fingers (again) why not support our president, resolve to learn by our past mistakes, begin to act like Americans, and start winning again. As ONE people and not sworn enemies working to destroy our nation together. Hand in Hand.
Perhaps it is just too much to expect. After all, a great generation only comes along once a century. This century has yet to produce one.
There was NEVER going to be a happy ending to the war in Afghanistan. It was a disaster from the start. Catastrophe after catastrophe. It was a total MESS from day one. Thanks to George W Bush for getting us involved.
It’s been heartbreaking from beginning to end. My heart hurts for all the members of the military who served there and for the Afghan people.
This incident proves gates to be correct. Biden has reversed most of what trump did, paris accord, pipeline, border security but he couldn't reverse the term of his meeting with the teliban.
RN the point fingers seems to fall to the guy who said the buck stops here as he is blaming trump, afgan army, afgan politicians, afgan citizens so what buck is he referring to.
Joey lived up to his reputation of being wrong on nearly every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past four decades. He ignored his advisors because he or better yet his handlers knew better than the experts and totally blew it.
skud: "Biden has reversed most of what trump did, paris accord, pipeline, border security but he couldn't reverse the term of his meeting with the teliban."
Read this report and learn something, please:
"A full withdrawal of U.S. forces from an unpopular war, America's longest, in a country where more than 172,000 people have been killed, including thousands of U.S. service members, and $1 trillion spent, was always going to be messy — and a blow to American pride.
How to end the war has been an enigma for American presidents.
George W. Bush largely abandoned Afghanistan and instead turned to a futile and costly attempt at regime change and then nation-building in Iraq.
Barack Obama refocused on Afghanistan and what he felt was the core mission — finding and killing bin Laden. But from the beginning of his presidency, Obama felt pressure from the Pentagon not to pull out of the country totally. He began a drawdown after bin Laden's killing but never left completely.
The continued U.S. presence in the country grew unpopular with Americans, including many Republicans. Neoconservative hawks took a back seat to the domestic-focused populism of the Tea Party, which former President Donald Trump rode to the top of the GOP.
Trump defied his party orthodoxy, sawing off the national-security hawk leg of the three-legged Republican stool that stood firm since President Ronald Reagan led the party, and he laid the foundation for the withdrawal by making a deal with the Taliban that was supposed to have U.S. troops out by May 1. There was talk for a while of inviting them to Camp David last year to ink a deal.
Trump now criticizes the way Biden withdrew the forces. Biden will own the consequences of the withdrawal, but Trump's position as the most popular person in his party puts GOP hawks in a difficult spot, too."
"Biden had always been for a limited footprint in Afghanistan, dating back to his days as vice president. During the Obama administration, he argued for a significant drawdown but still retaining the capability of special forces to launch counterterrorism missions.
That has been less of a focus for Biden as president, suggesting it's over and done with.
"I believed that our presence in Afghanistan should be focused on the reason we went in the first place — to ensure Afghanistan would not be used as a base from which to attack our homeland again," Biden said in April. "We did that. We accomplished that objective."
On Saturday, Biden said in a statement, in part: "I have ordered our Armed Forces and our Intelligence Community to ensure that we will maintain the capability and the vigilance to address future terrorist threats from Afghanistan."
Ms. Shaw, The biggest issue is not getting out it is getting out without a plan but we were warned. BHO said never underestimate biden's ability to F--- things up and this goes to show that he was right. His handlers totally blew this one but he will come through it OK. He stated they have considered every contingency and then followed no plan. Leave US citizens and people that assisted the US behind, leave all weapons, aircraft and supplies behind to be used against us is not a great plan. Grated we should have not been there in the first place but this administration was incompetent in their handling of the withdrawal. You can't blame joey because he was told to take a helicopter rind and read a speech then he can go back into hiding right after.
The media will not focus on this debacle and joey will return to his basement and not give a Q&A press conference. I would hate to see him go because his replacement is far worse.
I think there are very few Americans who will argue for continued US troop engagement in Afghanistan. The great majority of ppl, including Presidents Trump and Biden are for leaving Afghanistan behind and bringing our people home.
The problem is the US, at this point, has 100% bungled the withdrawal. We've got 1000's of ppl there who for years have served and helped the US. Those ppl, and their families are now under a death sentence unless we save them.
We've been struggling with this for years, but our withdrawal brings it front and center.
The US needs enough troops on the ground in Afghanistan now until we get as many of those former US Allies and their families out of the country.
I'll be honest, I don't think Pres Biden and I doubt Trump would've either, will do much for these people. We will be reading about their deaths for years to come.
The political classes were aghast when Trump abandoned the Kurds in Syria. This incident proves foreign policy incompetence isn't just confined to one party.
Can someone, anyone, tell me why the US is not operating essentially a Berlin airlift 24/7 to rescue our allies? Rather than leaving them to die? Everyone single one of them would make a grateful American citizen for years to come, if only we could do the right thing as we head out and leave the door open just a few minutes more.
And Skud... go away. your snark, lies and cynicism really gets tired.
You have never offered a solution to anything with which you have disagreed. Rather, you have used every opportunity to do little more than try and score political points.
Make a positive case for why you should even be commenting here.
President Biden gave a speech to explain the Afghan situation.
Neither you nor I nor most blogger know what actually went down on this withdrawal. We do know that it was Trump who started the ball rolling and who released 5,000 Taliban prisoners who then rejoined the Taliban:
Sept. 3, 2020
KABUL, Afghanistan — President Ashraf Ghani of Afghanistan on Sunday said his government would release a last batch of Taliban prisoners, removing the final hurdle in the way of direct negotiations with the insurgents to end the country’s long war.
His announcement came after a consultative assembly where he had been advised by thousands of representatives from across the country.
The release of 5,000 Taliban prisoners, which the United States agreed to in a February deal with the insurgents that also began the phased withdrawal of American troops, faced opposition from the Afghan government, which is holding the prisoners. After prolonged pressure from the Trump administration, Mr. Ghani released 4,600 prisoners from a list provided by the Taliban but called for consultations over 400, who he said were accused or convicted of major crimes, including murder, that were beyond his authority to pardon."
All you're doing is looking for rightwing sound bites to denigrate President Biden. What happened over the past 20 years and over past few days is more complicated and serious than your coming here to whine about what happened.
As I said previously, we will never know what would have happened if Trump were still president, but looking at how he handled the pandemic, it's a good bet things would have been worse than what we witnessed.
Trump is and has always been an incompetent fraud, interested only in what's in it for him.
Trump's calls for President Biden's to resign are risible and perfectly in keeping with his malignant narcissistic behavior to always grab headlines and stay relevant, even though a majority of Americans want him to keep his ignorant mouth shut.
The Trump deal allowed the Taliban to consolidate power throughout the nation leading to the rapid takeover of the country. Why? Was it for a ceasefire through the 2020 election cycle? That would be a very disturbing usage of foreign policy by a sitting President, yes? I think so
Dave whoever advised Biden that Kabul wouldn't collapse as quickly as it did, needs to be fired. President Biden has to take responsibility for what happened, but he's no military expert, and he got some really bad intel. Makes me wonder if the military knows what it's doing.
RN, skud is allowed to comment here because otherwise, this would be an echo chamber, like the Mother Ship is. His comments also allow us to see how they're thinking on various political subjects. But yeah, it does wear one down.
On another note, maybe someone should start a comspiracy theory. Perhaps tRump has loyalists in the military (particarly in intel) and that is why the intel to president Biden sucked.
And why shouldn't somneone on the left start a CT? The damn Trumpublican Party of Liars have been doing it for 5 years for certain and it's likely the party (former Republican party pre tRunp) has been shoveling political BS for FAR longer.
Anyway, it's their right to be whatever kind of lying conspiracy theory morons they want to be right? Everyone has the same rights and some simply perfer the poarh of ignorance and fairy tales.
Infidel753 has a good observation in his post today. "The US had disbanded the ethnic militias, which had had some success against the Taliban before 2001, in favor of a "national" army -- ignoring the reality of how identity and loyalty actually work in such societies."
Rev, Did I ruffle some feathers that you attack me for nothing I said.
Anon, The swell guy also reduced the forces in Afghanistan in 2014 to 10,000 contributing to an resurgence of taliban control in outlying regions.
Ms. Shaw, agree someone needs to be fired but I can't see that happening. From all the news reports, even CNN, joey was told what will happen but he ignored it. Why would you pull the military before you pulled civilians. That is just not a bright move and his buck stops stops here speech was to blame everyone but him.
No one has been able to concur Afghanistan since Alexander the Great in 330 B.C. The Russians thought they could in the 20th century. Bush thought he could in the 21st century. Now Biden will be blamed for the mess when we finally pull out after 20 years of Americans fighting. What do Americans want? We could go back with 500,000 American troops, take the country, declare it an American territory, and give it the same rights and protection as other American territories. Biden is correct, but criticism of his decision won't die down as we hear of the atrocities the Taliban will commit in the ongoing future. Those future deaths the Taliban will commit are not Biden's fault.
Skud... you ruffle feathers everyday because you refuse to even try and be part of a conversation without snark.
Over on AOW, Silverfiddle and I are rarely in agreement yet most of the time, can have an online discussion, share informed ideas, concede a little when necessary, share informed links to support our views and avoid the childish snark and references you employ in almost every post. [the swell guy, sleepy joe, etc., etc.]
About the only good thing I can say about most of your posts is that you stop short of the Capitan of the HMS Mothership who for instance today seems to agree with a friend who said Biden and Harris planned this so Harris could take over.
That type of "analysis" is the poison of American politics. It was poison, as I've said numerous times, when Dems said it about Bush regarding Katrina and Iraq and it is poison today.
Here's what some advocate, seen on the poop deck of the Mothership...
"[Someone said...] 'AFTER 9/11, I WISH BUSH HAD GONE IN, BOMBED THE CRAP OUT OF THE AREA AND GOT OUT' (I believe that’s what Trump WOULD have done, but he’d have taken out the whole Middle East!) OH, GOD… WHY DIDN’T WE JUST THE F DO THAT?"
And there, in a nutshell is the distillation of what some Americans want.
But I would argue, many, if not a majority of Americans, want some version of that quote.
Americans have been told we're special, the best, exceptional. And we have internalized those words and we apply them to everything. Including war. We believe we should be able to win every war, do not understand why we keep losing and the solution is to "bomb ppl back to the stone age".
The solution for them is to just beat the crap out of everybody, make the world as we want it and then everyone will see how great it is and worship us. As they did after WWII.
Culturally the Afghan people would never acccept dominationb by the west, and, can you blame them? The hollier than thou attitude of the Christian West, especially some in the American Evangelical right, is enough to make a person livinging mindfully and practicing daily in total disgust.
Afghanistan will most likely continue to be Afghanistan as it has been for another thousand years or so. It simply is what it is. The only people who can change the realities permanently are the Afghan people themselves..
Rev, I read Silverfiddle's post and have to agree with him on almost everything he said. This S--- Show was the doing by Bush and his we have won. You cannot win against an enemy you don't understand and we didn't understand the people of either Iraq or Afghanistan and still don't. It is not a country, it is an ideology based on a religion we don't have a clue about.
He went after Afghanistan and Iraq to show you cannot attack the US and get away with it. Life to them has little meaning because if they die for the cause they are martyrs where we take every life to actually have meaning. He stood on an aircraft carrier and declared us a winner when it fact it was just the beginning with no end.
This country does not do well with wars because politics become the main point. We did accomplish a lot in Afghanistan for women and children but now we have left them in a worse place than before. Biden totally screwed up the removal of the troops against the advise of his advisors. Move the equipment, evacuate the people then remove the military. Should we have gotten out, yes years ago, should we have been there, absolutely not. What did we accomplish, not a damn thing. We could have had revenge against the people responsible for 9/11 with a limited strike against the leaders and gone home.
Our president showing either his lack of understanding of issues or his lack of concern for the American people. Read a speech and go back on vacation while turning his back on the people. It is disgusting to not take any questions and to remain in hiding. At least the VP could put a face forward but she is in hiding as well.
Skud… such an answer in missing the point… which was about the quality of comments between TC, Silver, CI and myself. Four very different ppl, able to discuss a real issue devoid of snark and juvenile references.
Which of course you did again in your latest stab at intelligent commenting.
You must be unable comment like an adult, or you are just choosing to not do so.
Suprisingly I found myself in agreement with most eveything you said skud. But that last paragraph? While carrying a bit of truth how is that helpful? Is it helpful?
Biden methinks allowed his emotions to cloud his judgement on the withdrawal. Thus chaos and political fallout. It could have, and yes, it should have been avoided. But here we are nonetheless.
Doesn't it make more sense for the pols on both sides of the aisle to push ego, political gamesmanship, and obstructive practices aside, drill down, and actually solve problems?
This federal government, largely due to hyper active over judgementalism, blind belief in political ideology, and the driving desire to win at any cost has almost destroyed its ability to function effectively. And many states are just as bad.
Hopefully future generations can repair the political divide the baby boomer generation created. And I for one am not so proud as to not see it. And, I was part of the problem. Just as so very many others in my generation are. They just don't recognize it or won't admit it.
We were not great stewards of our planet or its environment, nor were we great stewards of compassion and understanding. Unless of course it just happened to fit our purely selfish national or party interests.
There is much to learn and know. But that requires an fierce inquisitiveness and a mind open to deep exploration. Something many of us avoid. Intentionally. Why is that?
Anyhoo, we (i) mostly agree on your points in this post skud. Thanks for putting it out there.
Shaw... here's what part of the problem is... we've moved from GOP Congressmen calling President Obama a liar when he addressed a joint session of congress to a sitting GOP congresswoman stating the following...
“Joe Biden, you are not a president, you are a piece of shit...”
Now the question is will those GOP partisans who have decried the cultural drift and morality of the US have anything to say about MGT and what she had to say.
They've already shown themselves unable to criticize GOP Rep Mo Brooks who found common cause with the man who wanted to bomb Washington Thursday.
Is there anything so extreme to elicit a response from any current GOP leader?
Rev, It is hard for either side to criticize their side. The liberals have a difficult time criticizing pelosi and chuckie and how many said trump is not my president. The right doesn't criticize abbott or desantis for their poor decision to ban masks so neither side shows responsible conduct.
Everything on some sites are all about trump even though he is no longer an influence. Some on the left want to keep trump in the picture and that is understandable because then they can ignore the multiple failures of biden/harris. I saw a poll the harris has a 16% chance of winning an election and trump had 13% so that shows how much influence he has.
Your final paragraph says it all Dave. When ego, blind ideology, lack of compassion and understanding, and unbridled ambition to authoritarian government are the driving political force, as is becoming more evident daily within the Trumpublican party, what we are witnessing was actually preditable.
I am not sure I've seen such a public mess as we are seeing with the withdrawal from Afghanistan.
On the one hand we have Pres Biden saying in a press conference... “We have no indication that [Americans] haven’t been able to get — in Kabul — through [to] the airport. … Thus far, [the Taliban have] allowed them to go through.”
Then almost at the same time we have Sec Def Austin saying... [Americans trying to flee Afghanistan] “have been harassed and even beaten” by Taliban fighters.
Was Biden lying? Uninformed? Is Austin lying? Wrong?
It cannot be both. One of these folks is wrong or lying.
Biden also said... “I have seen no question of our credibility from our allies around the world.”
Merkel, Macron, the Brits and more have been openly critical. How is it possible that Biden is unaware of these views? Is he pretending or again, lying about what our European allies are saying? Incoming German PM Laschet called the withdrawal “the biggest debacle that NATO has suffered since its founding.”
If Biden is being truthful and he has not heard these critiques, he needs to fire his entire foreign policy team for not bringing the info, or making sure he turned on the TV or read a newspaper. Because it is either that, or he's lying.
How is this possible?
Biden knows one of the biggest criticisms of Trump was his untruthfulness. And now he's risking his entire Admin to cover up ineptitude with lies.
Can anyone offer an explanation?
I fault Biden no one whit for the war, or Trump's decision to withdraw. But the management of the withdrawal and the aftermath is 100% on him.
Rev, I don't think joey is intentionally lying like his predecessor did. It seems like he is just kept out of the information loop and his only requirement is to read the speech he is given. He did finally take questions but it was obvious they were planned questions from planned sources. When someone asked a follow up that was not planned he admitted that was not the question he expected.
If joey lasts the next three years we can expect more embarrassing moments. So far his handlers and the major networks have done a good job of keeping him away from criticism but that seems to be changing with his decision how to withdraw from Afghanistan.
Joe Biden might be gaffe prone from time to time and he likely allows s few details to escape his scrunity on rare occasions but, I'll take his basic honesty, decency, ACTUAL love of country, detailed understanding of how a democratic republic us supposed to actually function, and so much more over the former lying fat orange slime skud.
But maybe you'll get a chance to vote for him again skud.
Skud... I am not sure what news you are watching and reading if you think criticism has been muted as it relates to Biden.
Every major new network in the states and the major US newspapers, have been leading for days with the debacle. The fact that I could assemble the above with minimal effort should prove that criticism of Biden is in the mainstream.
Saying otherwise is simply not supported by the facts.
I appreciate that you admit that Trump intentionally lied to the American people. For some reason, many of his fans think he never lied.
Shaw... we should note that as bad as Pres Biden has handled the withdrawal from Afghanistan, as Former National Security Director HR McMaster said, the dye was cast by the Trump Admin dealing with the Taliban. People we used to call terrorists.
McMaster noted that Sec of State Pompeo of the Trump Admin signed a deal that forced the Afghanis, who they barred from taking part in the talks, to release over 5000 Taliban members [terrorists], who immediately melted into the larger terrorist network and included Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, founder of the Taliban, who is now the de facto leader of the terrorist group harassing US troops and killing Afghanis who helped the US.
I get why people, mostly conservatives, are angry with Biden. The withdrawal was poorly planned and badly executed. But to not recognize the errors of the Trump Admin and Sec State in releasing thousands of terrorists and the founder of the Taliban is a willful rejection of reality in service to a cult leader.
If you take away the fact that covid is rising, blaming trumpers for the increase for not getting vaccinated is bogus. The largest percentage of those refusing to get shot are either trump supporting blacks an those in the medical profession. The border is a mess even if the Rev hasn't seen it. Bodies are being found of illegals who died in transit. Now we go to the ME to increase oil production giving up our independence. Inflation is over 6% and businesses are having significant issues finding employees due to they can make more staying home. Give russia approval for their pipeline why shutting ours down. And then of course there is the ongoing debacle in Afghanistan. Crime in major cities is reaching historic levels with no reduction in sight Trying to get 3.5 trillion for social modifications that will add millions of voters who are totally dependent on the federal government and remove the incentive to work hard to achieve success. FYI, the idea that only those making over 400k will pay for this shows our poor educational system.
Other than those issues biden is doing a great job
On the plus side there was a poll that indicated neither biden or trump is being supported for the next election.
Shaw... let's not leave out the White Evangelicals... 24% of them are steadfast vax resisters. Enough in and of themselves to keep the US population from herd immunity.
I guess they do things differently in the colonies because I was never asked what my political affiliation was when I got my shot's. Regardless, with the proven safety of all three vaccines and the fact that you are not only protecting you but your family I don't see why everyone doesn't get shot. The number of vaccinations in increasing so that is a good sign. Why don't the pillars of society, athletes and Hollywood icons advertise for everyone to be shot. Guess there is not enough money in that advertising and they want to stick with promoting BLM and Nike. Think where we would be if everyone was not mandated to get the polio and MMR vaccine to attend school. Unfortunately you can't outlaw stupidity
Skud... you asked "Why don't the pillars of society, athletes and Hollywood icons advertise for everyone to be shot."
And then followed it with your typical uninformed cheap shot. Lots of athletes, pillars of society and Hollywood icons have done PSA's, published photos of themselves getting vaccinated and for instance, in the case of Charles Barkley, been very vocal about ppl getting vaxxed.
What you need to ask yourself is this... Why has every living president except one, the one who green lit Operation Warp Speed, joined together to urge Americans to get vaccinated? To date Trump has never published a pic of himself or his wife getting vaxxed and has refused to do a PSA urging the most vaccine resistant group, his supporters, to get vaccinated.
Maybe it has to do with the reaction he got when he told his supporters the other night to get vaccinated. He was booed!
None of those athletes, pillars of society or Hollywood icons, BTW, got a dime for helping promote vaccines. And teams like the LV Raiders, who are sponsoring vaccine clinics at their games are not getting paid either.
On a side note, I'd love you to share your thoughts on vaccine stupidity at the Mothership. I'm sure your more conservative amigos would love your opinions on that.
A little more on Skud's thoughts related to getting vaxxed.
Skud said... "...you can't outlaw stupidity.
That is certainly true Skud. I appreciate that you've come around to the generally liberal view that the great majority [I'm excepting real medical reasons] of ppl not getting the vaccine are stupid.
The latest polling, out today brings a little more clarity to the numbers Shaw and I both cited earlier...
Only 55% of Republican voters have been vaccinated, compared to 88% of Democratic voters. Using your logic, that leaves a pretty large group of unvaccinated "stupid" people out there and the great majority of them support your political views.
Why didn't trump and the balance of the so called REPUBLICAN "leaders" advocate for EVERYONE to get the vaccine the MOMENT it became available skud? Rather than essentiaslly remaining silent or advocate for personal freedom at all cost and screw the rest.
Why don't you start with THAT skud? Perhaps its because it's the truth?
RN, Why doesn't the current administration mandate getting vaccinated. Now that there are approved vaccines I would hope schools would mandate being vaccinated to attend. It looks like some of the evil corporations are either mandating vaccinations or making it costly to not for employees. RN, I have always believed that there are those who should not make personal decisions because they are unable.
Rev, According to a gallop poll party affiliation as of July are 26% republican, 27% democrat and 43% independent, where do they fall in your vaccinated percentages. I still don't know how accurate any of the statistics are because I don't know of anyone who was asked party affiliation when getting shot but maybe it is different in Nevada. BTW I go y shot as soon as I could and although everything evil is trumps fault I do credit him with the rapid development of a vaccine by removing a lot of the bureaucracy.
As for how they know, no, they don't ask you when you get a shot, but they poll ppl who are not getting vaxxed and then extrapolate the data from there.
As for Trump and the development of the vaccine, I agree. The former president and his team get all the credit for the quickest development of the safest vaccine in history. They green lighted the project, put the money in to make it and delivered.
It wasn't perfect, but it was darn good.
As I've said all along, we should credit Trump for quick development of the vaccine [WARP SPEED] and we should credit the Biden Admin for a quick and mostly effective roll out.
But, and this is where I have a real problem with Trump... why was he absent from the early efforts to publicize the incredibly safe and effective vaccines his team made happen?
His early and effusive support would have saved lives!
And yet he remained on the sideline.
The only answer I can come up with is horrible. And it's this... he was so incensed at losing the election to Joe Biden that he made a decision to do nothing that might make him look better.
So he sacrificed American lives to salve his ego.
Rather than battle his own fans, who exist almost solely to "own the libs" and tell them they are wrong and need to get the vaccine, he remained mostly silent.
And Americans died and are suffering to this day.
As for a US mandate, I think Biden is trying not to do that as it will push vax snowflakes over the edge. Why not let businesses, like Delta, the LV Raiders and others, effectively impose mandates on customers, and take the heat?
We're already seeing the GOP struggle with a response on that front. For years they've advocated for and stated a mostly carte blanche approach to business regulation, but now some, like Governors in FL and TX seem to be changing their tune.
Rev, I read your link and it appears that white Christians are the enemy. I hope with vaccines receiving approval it will increase the numbers of vaccinations. It is beneficial to blame your predecessor and they all do. Trump was an idiot when it came to covid and who knows why. He thought there were more thinking adults who could make up their own minds what is best for them. His not asking people to get the vac may have had an impact in the first few weeks but after it was readily available people that choose not to get shot either not stupid or have objections to vaccines.
If I understand you correctly Dave what I believe you are saying in is simply this, Trump did not focus on how to apply his incredible success with Warp Speed to motivate and encourage people to follow the science and reduce suffering and the loss of life and loved ones. Rather he allowed his ego and narrow minded narcissistic tendencies to drive his actions. It is my belief that had he acted with altruism, compassion, and out of love for humanity rather than love of self he WOULD BE PRESIDENT right now. In the present moment.
Things really do work out just as they're meant to. With right attitude and right intensions the possibilities are limitless.
Well Skud... as usual, you infer something not said in my comment.
Listing facts about vaccine hesitancy is not about determining an enemy. It is simply a statement.
As for Pres Trump, you are correct, he was an idiot when it came to Covid. And an admitted liar.
Yes, he has come around to publicly say to people get the vaccine, but how many lives might have been saved had he stepped up earlier in the year when the roll out of the vaccine his admin developed began.
51 comments:
It is not we need to get out it is we should have had plans on how. He read that they had plans for every contingency and it does appear they utilized none of those plans. Can't blame poor joey because I doubt he had a clue we were abandoning the people of Afghanistan but he really needs better handlers.
Not all of the DNC networks are supportive of what took place so that is the first push back biden has had. I'm sure this will blow over in a short period of time because the DNC owns the media and they drive opinions.
Skud... we followed the plans Pres Trump set in motion. He set the date, and even publicized it. Maybe you can remember when Obama set a date certain for withdrawal from Iraq that conservatives openly mocked him for declaring our intentions publicly and putting US lives at risk.
I've got to wonder why you and your fellow Mothership sailors were not as incensed when Pres Trump set that public date?
Biden made a decision. It didn't all go as planned. He took responsibility, explained his actions to the American people and has set a new path forward.
Did Pres Trump ever do that once during his admin when things he planned didn't go as hoped?
I'll save you time. The answer is no. He did not. Ever.
I'll take Biden's approach, much like presidents before him, any day.
Biden's decision is the absolute correct decision. It should have been made 10 years ago, if not sooner. So, there is much blame to pass around for the stupid decisions this nation has made (by 4 presidents) relative to Afghanistan.
Rather than point GD fingers (again) why not support our president, resolve to learn by our past mistakes, begin to act like Americans, and start winning again. As ONE people and not sworn enemies working to destroy our nation together. Hand in Hand.
Perhaps it is just too much to expect. After all, a great generation only comes along once a century. This century has yet to produce one.
We can't save save Afghanistan from itself.
We can't even save Florida!
skud, Dave, RN, and Herd Ringer
There was NEVER going to be a happy ending to the war in Afghanistan. It was a disaster from the start. Catastrophe after catastrophe. It was a total MESS from day one. Thanks to George W Bush for getting us involved.
It’s been heartbreaking from beginning to end. My heart hurts for all the members of the military who served there and for the Afghan people.
This incident proves gates to be correct. Biden has reversed most of what trump did, paris accord, pipeline, border security but he couldn't reverse the term of his meeting with the teliban.
RN the point fingers seems to fall to the guy who said the buck stops here as he is blaming trump, afgan army, afgan politicians, afgan citizens so what buck is he referring to.
Joey lived up to his reputation of being wrong on nearly every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past four decades. He ignored his advisors because he or better yet his handlers knew better than the experts and totally blew it.
skud: "Biden has reversed most of what trump did, paris accord, pipeline, border security but he couldn't reverse the term of his meeting with the teliban."
Read this report and learn something, please:
"A full withdrawal of U.S. forces from an unpopular war, America's longest, in a country where more than 172,000 people have been killed, including thousands of U.S. service members, and $1 trillion spent, was always going to be messy — and a blow to American pride.
How to end the war has been an enigma for American presidents.
George W. Bush largely abandoned Afghanistan and instead turned to a futile and costly attempt at regime change and then nation-building in Iraq.
Barack Obama refocused on Afghanistan and what he felt was the core mission — finding and killing bin Laden. But from the beginning of his presidency, Obama felt pressure from the Pentagon not to pull out of the country totally. He began a drawdown after bin Laden's killing but never left completely.
The continued U.S. presence in the country grew unpopular with Americans, including many Republicans. Neoconservative hawks took a back seat to the domestic-focused populism of the Tea Party, which former President Donald Trump rode to the top of the GOP.
Trump defied his party orthodoxy, sawing off the national-security hawk leg of the three-legged Republican stool that stood firm since President Ronald Reagan led the party, and he laid the foundation for the withdrawal by making a deal with the Taliban that was supposed to have U.S. troops out by May 1. There was talk for a while of inviting them to Camp David last year to ink a deal.
Trump now criticizes the way Biden withdrew the forces. Biden will own the consequences of the withdrawal, but Trump's position as the most popular person in his party puts GOP hawks in a difficult spot, too."
(cont.)
"Biden had always been for a limited footprint in Afghanistan, dating back to his days as vice president. During the Obama administration, he argued for a significant drawdown but still retaining the capability of special forces to launch counterterrorism missions.
That has been less of a focus for Biden as president, suggesting it's over and done with.
"I believed that our presence in Afghanistan should be focused on the reason we went in the first place — to ensure Afghanistan would not be used as a base from which to attack our homeland again," Biden said in April. "We did that. We accomplished that objective."
On Saturday, Biden said in a statement, in part: "I have ordered our Armed Forces and our Intelligence Community to ensure that we will maintain the capability and the vigilance to address future terrorist threats from Afghanistan."
SOURCE
Ms. Shaw, The biggest issue is not getting out it is getting out without a plan but we were warned. BHO said never underestimate biden's ability to F--- things up and this goes to show that he was right. His handlers totally blew this one but he will come through it OK. He stated they have considered every contingency and then followed no plan. Leave US citizens and people that assisted the US behind, leave all weapons, aircraft and supplies behind to be used against us is not a great plan. Grated we should have not been there in the first place but this administration was incompetent in their handling of the withdrawal. You can't blame joey because he was told to take a helicopter rind and read a speech then he can go back into hiding right after.
The media will not focus on this debacle and joey will return to his basement and not give a Q&A press conference. I would hate to see him go because his replacement is far worse.
Shaw and others...
I think there are very few Americans who will argue for continued US troop engagement in Afghanistan. The great majority of ppl, including Presidents Trump and Biden are for leaving Afghanistan behind and bringing our people home.
The problem is the US, at this point, has 100% bungled the withdrawal. We've got 1000's of ppl there who for years have served and helped the US. Those ppl, and their families are now under a death sentence unless we save them.
We've been struggling with this for years, but our withdrawal brings it front and center.
The US needs enough troops on the ground in Afghanistan now until we get as many of those former US Allies and their families out of the country.
I'll be honest, I don't think Pres Biden and I doubt Trump would've either, will do much for these people. We will be reading about their deaths for years to come.
The political classes were aghast when Trump abandoned the Kurds in Syria. This incident proves foreign policy incompetence isn't just confined to one party.
Can someone, anyone, tell me why the US is not operating essentially a Berlin airlift 24/7 to rescue our allies? Rather than leaving them to die? Everyone single one of them would make a grateful American citizen for years to come, if only we could do the right thing as we head out and leave the door open just a few minutes more.
And Skud... go away. your snark, lies and cynicism really gets tired.
You have never offered a solution to anything with which you have disagreed. Rather, you have used every opportunity to do little more than try and score political points.
Make a positive case for why you should even be commenting here.
skud, why would I take you seriously?
President Biden gave a speech to explain the Afghan situation.
Neither you nor I nor most blogger know what actually went down on this withdrawal. We do know that it was Trump who started the ball rolling and who released 5,000 Taliban prisoners who then rejoined the Taliban:
Sept. 3, 2020
KABUL, Afghanistan — President Ashraf Ghani of Afghanistan on Sunday said his government would release a last batch of Taliban prisoners, removing the final hurdle in the way of direct negotiations with the insurgents to end the country’s long war.
His announcement came after a consultative assembly where he had been advised by thousands of representatives from across the country.
The release of 5,000 Taliban prisoners, which the United States agreed to in a February deal with the insurgents that also began the phased withdrawal of American troops, faced opposition from the Afghan government, which is holding the prisoners. After prolonged pressure from the Trump administration, Mr. Ghani released 4,600 prisoners from a list provided by the Taliban but called for consultations over 400, who he said were accused or convicted of major crimes, including murder, that were beyond his authority to pardon."
All you're doing is looking for rightwing sound bites to denigrate President Biden. What happened over the past 20 years and over past few days is more complicated and serious than your coming here to whine about what happened.
As I said previously, we will never know what would have happened if Trump were still president, but looking at how he handled the pandemic, it's a good bet things would have been worse than what we witnessed.
Trump is and has always been an incompetent fraud, interested only in what's in it for him.
Trump's calls for President Biden's to resign are risible and perfectly in keeping with his malignant narcissistic behavior to always grab headlines and stay relevant, even though a majority of Americans want him to keep his ignorant mouth shut.
Obama tracked down & killed Al Qaeda terrorist leader Osama bin Laden.
Obama had Taliban terrorist leader Abdul Ghani Baradar imprisoned in 2010.
Trump freed Baradar in 2018 along w/5000 other Taliban fighters & agreed to withdraw U.S. troops from Afghanistan.
Yes Shaw, why would you? It would be totally pointless, wouldn't it.
The Trump deal allowed the Taliban to consolidate power throughout the nation leading to the rapid takeover of the country. Why? Was it for a ceasefire through the 2020 election cycle? That would be a very disturbing usage of foreign policy by a sitting President, yes? I think so
Dave whoever advised Biden that Kabul wouldn't collapse as quickly as it did, needs to be fired. President Biden has to take responsibility for what happened, but he's no military expert, and he got some really bad intel. Makes me wonder if the military knows what it's doing.
RN, skud is allowed to comment here because otherwise, this would be an echo chamber, like the Mother Ship is. His comments also allow us to see how they're thinking on various political subjects. But yeah, it does wear one down.
Isn't THAT skud's purpose Shaw, to wear ya down?
On another note, maybe someone should start a comspiracy theory. Perhaps tRump has loyalists in the military (particarly in intel) and that is why the intel to president Biden sucked.
And why shouldn't somneone on the left start a CT? The damn Trumpublican Party of Liars have been doing it for 5 years for certain and it's likely the party (former Republican party pre tRunp) has been shoveling political BS for FAR longer.
Anyway, it's their right to be whatever kind of lying conspiracy theory morons they want to be right? Everyone has the same rights and some simply perfer the poarh of ignorance and fairy tales.
Infidel753 has a good observation in his post today.
"The US had disbanded the ethnic militias, which had had some success against the Taliban before 2001, in favor of a "national" army -- ignoring the reality of how identity and loyalty actually work in such societies."
Rev, Did I ruffle some feathers that you attack me for nothing I said.
Anon, The swell guy also reduced the forces in Afghanistan in 2014 to 10,000 contributing to an resurgence of taliban control in outlying regions.
Ms. Shaw, agree someone needs to be fired but I can't see that happening. From all the news reports, even CNN, joey was told what will happen but he ignored it. Why would you pull the military before you pulled civilians. That is just not a bright move and his buck stops stops here speech was to blame everyone but him.
No one has been able to concur Afghanistan since Alexander the Great in 330 B.C. The Russians thought they could in the 20th century. Bush thought he could in the 21st century. Now Biden will be blamed for the mess when we finally pull out after 20 years of Americans fighting.
What do Americans want?
We could go back with 500,000 American troops, take the country, declare it an American territory, and give it the same rights and protection as other American territories.
Biden is correct, but criticism of his decision won't die down as we hear of the atrocities the Taliban will commit in the ongoing future. Those future deaths the Taliban will commit are not Biden's fault.
Skud... you ruffle feathers everyday because you refuse to even try and be part of a conversation without snark.
Over on AOW, Silverfiddle and I are rarely in agreement yet most of the time, can have an online discussion, share informed ideas, concede a little when necessary, share informed links to support our views and avoid the childish snark and references you employ in almost every post. [the swell guy, sleepy joe, etc., etc.]
About the only good thing I can say about most of your posts is that you stop short of the Capitan of the HMS Mothership who for instance today seems to agree with a friend who said Biden and Harris planned this so Harris could take over.
That type of "analysis" is the poison of American politics. It was poison, as I've said numerous times, when Dems said it about Bush regarding Katrina and Iraq and it is poison today.
It's sad really.
Jerry... what do Americans want?
Here's what some advocate, seen on the poop deck of the Mothership...
"[Someone said...] 'AFTER 9/11, I WISH BUSH HAD GONE IN, BOMBED THE CRAP OUT OF THE AREA AND GOT OUT' (I believe that’s what Trump WOULD have done, but he’d have taken out the whole Middle East!) OH, GOD… WHY DIDN’T WE JUST THE F DO THAT?"
And there, in a nutshell is the distillation of what some Americans want.
But I would argue, many, if not a majority of Americans, want some version of that quote.
Americans have been told we're special, the best, exceptional. And we have internalized those words and we apply them to everything. Including war. We believe we should be able to win every war, do not understand why we keep losing and the solution is to "bomb ppl back to the stone age".
The solution for them is to just beat the crap out of everybody, make the world as we want it and then everyone will see how great it is and worship us. As they did after WWII.
Culturally the Afghan people would never acccept dominationb by the west, and, can you blame them? The hollier than thou attitude of the Christian West, especially some in the American Evangelical right, is enough to make a person livinging mindfully and practicing daily in total disgust.
Afghanistan will most likely continue to be Afghanistan as it has been for another thousand years or so. It simply is what it is. The only people who can change the realities permanently are the Afghan people themselves..
To HELL with MS. AOW
Rev, I read Silverfiddle's post and have to agree with him on almost everything he said. This S--- Show was the doing by Bush and his we have won. You cannot win against an enemy you don't understand and we didn't understand the people of either Iraq or Afghanistan and still don't. It is not a country, it is an ideology based on a religion we don't have a clue about.
He went after Afghanistan and Iraq to show you cannot attack the US and get away with it. Life to them has little meaning because if they die for the cause they are martyrs where we take every life to actually have meaning. He stood on an aircraft carrier and declared us a winner when it fact it was just the beginning with no end.
This country does not do well with wars because politics become the main point. We did accomplish a lot in Afghanistan for women and children but now we have left them in a worse place than before. Biden totally screwed up the removal of the troops against the advise of his advisors. Move the equipment, evacuate the people then remove the military. Should we have gotten out, yes years ago, should we have been there, absolutely not. What did we accomplish, not a damn thing. We could have had revenge against the people responsible for 9/11 with a limited strike against the leaders and gone home.
Our president showing either his lack of understanding of issues or his lack of concern for the American people. Read a speech and go back on vacation while turning his back on the people. It is disgusting to not take any questions and to remain in hiding. At least the VP could put a face forward but she is in hiding as well.
Skud… such an answer in missing the point… which was about the quality of comments between TC, Silver, CI and myself. Four very different ppl, able to discuss a real issue devoid of snark and juvenile references.
Which of course you did again in your latest stab at intelligent commenting.
You must be unable comment like an adult, or you are just choosing to not do so.
Suprisingly I found myself in agreement with most eveything you said skud. But that last paragraph? While carrying a bit of truth how is that helpful? Is it helpful?
Biden methinks allowed his emotions to cloud his judgement on the withdrawal. Thus chaos and political fallout. It could have, and yes, it should have been avoided. But here we are nonetheless.
Doesn't it make more sense for the pols on both sides of the aisle to push ego, political gamesmanship, and obstructive practices aside, drill down, and actually solve problems?
This federal government, largely due to hyper active over judgementalism, blind belief in political ideology, and the driving desire to win at any cost has almost destroyed its ability to function effectively. And many states are just as bad.
Hopefully future generations can repair the political divide the baby boomer generation created. And I for one am not so proud as to not see it. And, I was part of the problem. Just as so very many others in my generation are. They just don't recognize it or won't admit it.
We were not great stewards of our planet or its environment, nor were we great stewards of compassion and understanding. Unless of course it just happened to fit our purely selfish national or party interests.
There is much to learn and know. But that requires an fierce inquisitiveness and a mind open to deep exploration. Something many of us avoid. Intentionally. Why is that?
Anyhoo, we (i) mostly agree on your points in this post skud. Thanks for putting it out there.
So long...
Shaw... here's what part of the problem is... we've moved from GOP Congressmen calling President Obama a liar when he addressed a joint session of congress to a sitting GOP congresswoman stating the following...
“Joe Biden, you are not a president, you are a piece of shit...”
Now the question is will those GOP partisans who have decried the cultural drift and morality of the US have anything to say about MGT and what she had to say.
They've already shown themselves unable to criticize GOP Rep Mo Brooks who found common cause with the man who wanted to bomb Washington Thursday.
Is there anything so extreme to elicit a response from any current GOP leader?
I think not...
Rev, It is hard for either side to criticize their side. The liberals have a difficult time criticizing pelosi and chuckie and how many said trump is not my president. The right doesn't criticize abbott or desantis for their poor decision to ban masks so neither side shows responsible conduct.
Everything on some sites are all about trump even though he is no longer an influence. Some on the left want to keep trump in the picture and that is understandable because then they can ignore the multiple failures of biden/harris. I saw a poll the harris has a 16% chance of winning an election and trump had 13% so that shows how much influence he has.
Your final paragraph says it all Dave. When ego, blind ideology, lack of compassion and understanding, and unbridled ambition to authoritarian government are the driving political force, as is becoming more evident daily within the Trumpublican party, what we are witnessing was actually preditable.
I am not sure I've seen such a public mess as we are seeing with the withdrawal from Afghanistan.
On the one hand we have Pres Biden saying in a press conference... “We have no indication that [Americans] haven’t been able to get — in Kabul — through [to] the airport. … Thus far, [the Taliban have] allowed them to go through.”
Then almost at the same time we have Sec Def Austin saying... [Americans trying to flee Afghanistan] “have been harassed and even beaten” by Taliban fighters.
Was Biden lying? Uninformed? Is Austin lying? Wrong?
It cannot be both. One of these folks is wrong or lying.
Biden also said... “I have seen no question of our credibility from our allies around the world.”
Merkel, Macron, the Brits and more have been openly critical. How is it possible that Biden is unaware of these views? Is he pretending or again, lying about what our European allies are saying? Incoming German PM Laschet called the withdrawal “the biggest debacle that NATO has suffered since its founding.”
If Biden is being truthful and he has not heard these critiques, he needs to fire his entire foreign policy team for not bringing the info, or making sure he turned on the TV or read a newspaper. Because it is either that, or he's lying.
How is this possible?
Biden knows one of the biggest criticisms of Trump was his untruthfulness. And now he's risking his entire Admin to cover up ineptitude with lies.
Can anyone offer an explanation?
I fault Biden no one whit for the war, or Trump's decision to withdraw. But the management of the withdrawal and the aftermath is 100% on him.
Rev, I don't think joey is intentionally lying like his predecessor did. It seems like he is just kept out of the information loop and his only requirement is to read the speech he is given. He did finally take questions but it was obvious they were planned questions from planned sources. When someone asked a follow up that was not planned he admitted that was not the question he expected.
If joey lasts the next three years we can expect more embarrassing moments. So far his handlers and the major networks have done a good job of keeping him away from criticism but that seems to be changing with his decision how to withdraw from Afghanistan.
Joe Biden might be gaffe prone from time to time and he likely allows s few details to escape his scrunity on rare occasions but, I'll take his basic honesty, decency, ACTUAL love of country, detailed understanding of how a democratic republic us supposed to actually function, and so much more over the former lying fat orange slime skud.
But maybe you'll get a chance to vote for him again skud.
Skud... I am not sure what news you are watching and reading if you think criticism has been muted as it relates to Biden.
Every major new network in the states and the major US newspapers, have been leading for days with the debacle. The fact that I could assemble the above with minimal effort should prove that criticism of Biden is in the mainstream.
Saying otherwise is simply not supported by the facts.
I appreciate that you admit that Trump intentionally lied to the American people. For some reason, many of his fans think he never lied.
Shaw... we should note that as bad as Pres Biden has handled the withdrawal from Afghanistan, as Former National Security Director HR McMaster said, the dye was cast by the Trump Admin dealing with the Taliban. People we used to call terrorists.
McMaster noted that Sec of State Pompeo of the Trump Admin signed a deal that forced the Afghanis, who they barred from taking part in the talks, to release over 5000 Taliban members [terrorists], who immediately melted into the larger terrorist network and included Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, founder of the Taliban, who is now the de facto leader of the terrorist group harassing US troops and killing Afghanis who helped the US.
I get why people, mostly conservatives, are angry with Biden. The withdrawal was poorly planned and badly executed. But to not recognize the errors of the Trump Admin and Sec State in releasing thousands of terrorists and the founder of the Taliban is a willful rejection of reality in service to a cult leader.
It's inexcusable behavior for an American.
If you take away the fact that covid is rising, blaming trumpers for the increase for not getting vaccinated is bogus. The largest percentage of those refusing to get shot are either trump supporting blacks an those in the medical profession.
The border is a mess even if the Rev hasn't seen it. Bodies are being found of illegals who died in transit.
Now we go to the ME to increase oil production giving up our independence. Inflation is over 6% and businesses are having significant issues finding employees due to they can make more staying home.
Give russia approval for their pipeline why shutting ours down.
And then of course there is the ongoing debacle in Afghanistan.
Crime in major cities is reaching historic levels with no reduction in sight
Trying to get 3.5 trillion for social modifications that will add millions of voters who are totally dependent on the federal government and remove the incentive to work hard to achieve success. FYI, the idea that only those making over 400k will pay for this shows our poor educational system.
Other than those issues biden is doing a great job
On the plus side there was a poll that indicated neither biden or trump is being supported for the next election.
skud: "The largest percentage of those refusing to get shot are either trump supporting blacks an those in the medical profession."
You need to back that up with evidence.
According to Forbes, you're wrong about the majority of non=vaxxers:
Republican men: 49%.
Trump supporters: 47%.
Republicans: 41%.
White men without a college degree: 40%.
Shaw... let's not leave out the White Evangelicals... 24% of them are steadfast vax resisters. Enough in and of themselves to keep the US population from herd immunity.
BTW... my stats are from the Wall Street Journal.
I guess they do things differently in the colonies because I was never asked what my political affiliation was when I got my shot's. Regardless, with the proven safety of all three vaccines and the fact that you are not only protecting you but your family I don't see why everyone doesn't get shot. The number of vaccinations in increasing so that is a good sign. Why don't the pillars of society, athletes and Hollywood icons advertise for everyone to be shot. Guess there is not enough money in that advertising and they want to stick with promoting BLM and Nike.
Think where we would be if everyone was not mandated to get the polio and MMR vaccine to attend school.
Unfortunately you can't outlaw stupidity
Skud... you asked "Why don't the pillars of society, athletes and Hollywood icons advertise for everyone to be shot."
And then followed it with your typical uninformed cheap shot. Lots of athletes, pillars of society and Hollywood icons have done PSA's, published photos of themselves getting vaccinated and for instance, in the case of Charles Barkley, been very vocal about ppl getting vaxxed.
What you need to ask yourself is this... Why has every living president except one, the one who green lit Operation Warp Speed, joined together to urge Americans to get vaccinated? To date Trump has never published a pic of himself or his wife getting vaxxed and has refused to do a PSA urging the most vaccine resistant group, his supporters, to get vaccinated.
Maybe it has to do with the reaction he got when he told his supporters the other night to get vaccinated. He was booed!
None of those athletes, pillars of society or Hollywood icons, BTW, got a dime for helping promote vaccines. And teams like the LV Raiders, who are sponsoring vaccine clinics at their games are not getting paid either.
On a side note, I'd love you to share your thoughts on vaccine stupidity at the Mothership. I'm sure your more conservative amigos would love your opinions on that.
Here's a few of those Hollywood icons Skud...
A little more on Skud's thoughts related to getting vaxxed.
Skud said... "...you can't outlaw stupidity.
That is certainly true Skud. I appreciate that you've come around to the generally liberal view that the great majority [I'm excepting real medical reasons] of ppl not getting the vaccine are stupid.
The latest polling, out today brings a little more clarity to the numbers Shaw and I both cited earlier...
Only 55% of Republican voters have been vaccinated, compared to 88% of Democratic voters. Using your logic, that leaves a pretty large group of unvaccinated "stupid" people out there and the great majority of them support your political views.
Why do you side with the stupids?
Why didn't trump and the balance of the so called REPUBLICAN "leaders" advocate for EVERYONE to get the vaccine the MOMENT it became available skud? Rather than essentiaslly remaining silent or advocate for personal freedom at all cost and screw the rest.
Why don't you start with THAT skud? Perhaps its because it's the truth?
RN, Why doesn't the current administration mandate getting vaccinated. Now that there are approved vaccines I would hope schools would mandate being vaccinated to attend. It looks like some of the evil corporations are either mandating vaccinations or making it costly to not for employees. RN, I have always believed that there are those who should not make personal decisions because they are unable.
Rev, According to a gallop poll party affiliation as of July are 26% republican, 27% democrat and 43% independent, where do they fall in your vaccinated percentages. I still don't know how accurate any of the statistics are because I don't know of anyone who was asked party affiliation when getting shot but maybe it is different in Nevada.
BTW I go y shot as soon as I could and although everything evil is trumps fault I do credit him with the rapid development of a vaccine by removing a lot of the bureaucracy.
Skud, the poll I saw was an NBC poll yesterday.
Here's a good read from Five Thirty Eight on the subject.
Evangelical Republican Vax Resistance
As for how they know, no, they don't ask you when you get a shot, but they poll ppl who are not getting vaxxed and then extrapolate the data from there.
As for Trump and the development of the vaccine, I agree. The former president and his team get all the credit for the quickest development of the safest vaccine in history. They green lighted the project, put the money in to make it and delivered.
It wasn't perfect, but it was darn good.
As I've said all along, we should credit Trump for quick development of the vaccine [WARP SPEED] and we should credit the Biden Admin for a quick and mostly effective roll out.
But, and this is where I have a real problem with Trump... why was he absent from the early efforts to publicize the incredibly safe and effective vaccines his team made happen?
His early and effusive support would have saved lives!
And yet he remained on the sideline.
The only answer I can come up with is horrible. And it's this... he was so incensed at losing the election to Joe Biden that he made a decision to do nothing that might make him look better.
So he sacrificed American lives to salve his ego.
Rather than battle his own fans, who exist almost solely to "own the libs" and tell them they are wrong and need to get the vaccine, he remained mostly silent.
And Americans died and are suffering to this day.
As for a US mandate, I think Biden is trying not to do that as it will push vax snowflakes over the edge. Why not let businesses, like Delta, the LV Raiders and others, effectively impose mandates on customers, and take the heat?
We're already seeing the GOP struggle with a response on that front. For years they've advocated for and stated a mostly carte blanche approach to business regulation, but now some, like Governors in FL and TX seem to be changing their tune.
All very interesting stuff...
Rev, I read your link and it appears that white Christians are the enemy. I hope with vaccines receiving approval it will increase the numbers of vaccinations. It is beneficial to blame your predecessor and they all do. Trump was an idiot when it came to covid and who knows why. He thought there were more thinking adults who could make up their own minds what is best for them. His not asking people to get the vac may have had an impact in the first few weeks but after it was readily available people that choose not to get shot either not stupid or have objections to vaccines.
If I understand you correctly Dave what I believe you are saying in is simply this, Trump did not focus on how to apply his incredible success with Warp Speed to motivate and encourage people to follow the science and reduce suffering and the loss of life and loved ones. Rather he allowed his ego and narrow minded narcissistic tendencies to drive his actions. It is my belief that had he acted with altruism, compassion, and out of love for humanity rather than love of self he WOULD BE PRESIDENT right now. In the present moment.
Things really do work out just as they're meant to. With right attitude and right intensions the possibilities are limitless.
Well Skud... as usual, you infer something not said in my comment.
Listing facts about vaccine hesitancy is not about determining an enemy. It is simply a statement.
As for Pres Trump, you are correct, he was an idiot when it came to Covid. And an admitted liar.
Yes, he has come around to publicly say to people get the vaccine, but how many lives might have been saved had he stepped up earlier in the year when the roll out of the vaccine his admin developed began.
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