Paul Revere by Cyrus Dallin, North End, Boston



Monday, August 15, 2022

What do you think? Discuss, please.



Les Carpenter said...

The gentleman has a valid viewpoint.

Given all we know about Trump it's more than likely that's exactly what con man Donnie planned to do. Or has already done.

Regardless, given the seriousness of crime boss Donnie's crime jail time, and plenty of it, is in order.

Dave Miller said...

And yet, based on Trump's narcissism, I think a case could be made that he wanted them as personal papers to show his kids, grandkids and future heirs as a way of showing them how important and powerful he was.

I'm willing to walk up to he illegally took them and had them in a non secure facility.

But I think imputing motives without proof, runs the risk of making the ppl lodging those charges look bad if things don't pan out.

And as lefties, we certainly wanted the benefit of the doubt as it related to Hillary, who also took plenty of State Dept classified docs with her to unsecure locations as well.

skudrunner said...

As with most things he is guilty before anything comes out to substantiate that. The FBI picked up some documents and, so far, they have not said what they found. Unlike Hunter where there is proof of his bad behavior he is innocent until proven guilty but with trump he is guilty....

He probably is guilty but the Optics look bad. In 2020 the democrats were afraid they were going to lose so they passed voting from your couch. Forward to 2022-24 they are again afraid they are going to lose so the day after congress goes into recess the AG who went after school kids parents authorizes a raid on trumps house. He is probably guilty but at least hold back until something is leaked before you hang him. No wonder so many people don't trust the government. Of course there are those who believe there was zero inflation in July also.

Shaw Kenawe said...

skud: "The FBI picked up some documents..."

According to the warrant, the FBI picked up TOP SECRET nuclear documents. Why would Trump take them to his private residence after he became a private citizen? Can you make a suggestion as to why without blaming Barack Obama for this outrageous act by a president who was thrown out of office by the American people?

Shaw Kenawe said...

Dave M., RN, skudrunner,

The meme on today's post is not my opinion. I found it on Twitter and am using it for discussion purposes only.

I read in the NYTimes today that the documents may be tested for fingerprints to see who else may have handled them.

Classified docs are not the same as Top Secret. That's very serious stuff.

Shaw Kenawe said...

for skud:

" search warrant made public on Friday revealed federal agents had recovered top secret documents when they searched Mr. Trump’s Florida residence earlier in the week as part of an investigation into possible violations of the Espionage Act and other laws.

Among the 11 sets of documents taken were some marked as “classified/TS/SCI” — shorthand for “top secret/sensitive compartmented information,” according to an inventory of the materials seized in the search. Those types of documents are meant to be viewed only in secure facilities. The inventory of documents included other material, some described as “confidential.”

The stunning revelation made clear the gravity of the Justice Department’s inquiry months after the National Archives and Records Administration said it had discovered classified information in documents Mr. Trump had held onto after leaving office.

“What he doesn’t have the right to do is possess the documents; they are not his,” Jason R. Baron, a former director of litigation at the National Archives for more than a decade, said. “There should be no presidential records at Mar-a-Lago, whether they are classified or unclassified or subject to executive privilege or subject to attorney-client privilege.”
--NYTimes (report, not an opinion piece

Shaw Kenawe said...


"Kash Patel, a former Trump administration official, subsequently justified the handling of the documents by saying that Mr. Trump had declassified them before leaving office — a claim echoed by the former president this week.

In an appearance on Fox News on Friday night, the right-wing writer John Solomon, one of Mr. Trump’s representatives for interacting with the National Archives, read a statement from the former president’s office asserting Mr. Trump had a “standing order” during his presidency that “documents removed from the Oval Office and taken to the residence were deemed to be declassified the moment he removed them.”

That claim would not resolve the investigation. Two of the laws referred to in the search warrant executed this week criminalize the taking or concealment of government records, regardless of whether they had anything to do with national security. And laws against taking material with restricted national security information are not dependent on whether the material is technically classified.

Mr. Bolton, who served as Mr. Trump’s third national security adviser over 17 months, said he had never heard of the standing order that Mr. Trump’s office claimed to have in place. It is, he said, “almost certainly a lie.”

skudrunner said...

Ms Shaw, For the countries sake I hope something substantial is found. I have yet to see what they found but you are more in the loop than I am. Warrants say a lot of things because they have to be broad based to encompass everything they may find. It doesn't mean they will find what they are looking but gives them permission.

Paula said...

"Trump and his allies have given conflicting defenses of his retention of classified, top secret documents, without addressing why he had kept them."

Elementary: Because he is a crook

Dave Miller said...

Skud... here's what you are missing. Any documents he has or had in his possession, represent a violation of the Presidential Records Act of 1978, passed by Congress and signed into law by President Carter in the aftermath of Watergate.

Trump has said and his aides confirmed that he does not like that law and believes, as president, he had immunity from prosecution should he decide to act differently than the law required. This stems from an understanding of the "power of the unitary executive" oddly enough dreamed up by Nixon's Chief of Staff, Dick Cheney.

That understanding led to this much quoted missive from Nixon... "If the president does it, it's not illegal."

That's why Trump feels he can destroy US documents, which the 1978 law posits in the possession of us, the people of the US, you, me, Shaw and others. It's why he flushed records, illegally I might add, down the toilet.

And it's why he left the White House with boxes of records, some potentially classified and marked Top Secret and why when asked to return those documents, he only partially complied. And it's why when asked about additional documents, his lawyer sent a signed statement, under penalty of perjury, that all documents had been returned. And it's why to this day, he is claiming the documents are his and not ours!

Fmr President Trump had and continues to show a disdain for the rule of laws he does not like. Because he can.

Unlike you and me.

The solution is not to burn it all down as many conservatives argue, but to prove to the American people that all must live according to the laws of our country.

Not just us poor schlubs.

Shaw Kenawe said...

"George Conway, a prominent lawyer and vocal critic of former President Donald Trump, said he believed that the Justice Department's investigation of top-secret documents kept at Mar-a-Lago could land Trump in prison.

Speaking with CNN's Jim Acosta on Saturday, Conway said he thought the inquiry — which involved the FBI searching Trump's Florida home last week for classified documents — carried a high likelihood of the former president being prosecuted for his actions.

"I think the shortest distance between Donald Trump and an orange jumpsuit is this investigation with the documents," said Conway, the husband of Kellyanne Conway, a former senior counselor to Trump.

"We haven't heard anything remotely approaching a rational, logical defense," Conway added.

Referring to the Espionage Act, Conway said proof that the documents Trump kept at Mar-a-Lago could be "used to the detriment of the US" and that the former president "refused to give them back" would be needed to ensure a conviction.

"The facts are as we've heard them. That's exactly what he did," Conway said.

When asked by Acosta why he thought Trump was holding on to those documents, Conway suggested there was "no valid reason."

Shaw Kenawe said...


"The reason is because he's just — he's a man who thinks everything belongs to him," Conway said of Trump, calling him a "narcissist" who thought it was "fine" to hold on to the documents, no matter what they concerned.

The FBI took 11 sets of classified documents — some of which were marked top secret and concerned nuclear weapons, according to The Washington Post — from Mar-a-Lago after searching the property last week. The Justice Department is investigating whether Trump broke three federal laws, including the Espionage Act. Violators of the act can face up to 10 years in prison if convicted."
Business Insider

But Trump's cultists will still defend the indefensible.

Dave Dubya said...

The reason he stole the documents doesn't matter. It's still all about him committing crimes.
Of course he would sell or trade them if it suited him. He has no patriotism, ethics or conscience.

Les Carpenter said...

I'm with Dave Dubya. He has demonstrated his disregard for the rule of law, the Consitution, his oath of office, common decency, and to the point... he has committed crimes. But because some dems are squeamish about head to head combat, even when they have the goods, King Donnie the Crime Boss will no doubt finish his miserable existence in the lap of luxury rather than where he belongs. In a federal pen for the rest of his miserable life.

skudrunner said...

I guess someday we will find out what those documents are and I hope it is soon. The extremists on both sides are going off the rails and we need to find out what the documents contained.

Shaw Kenawe said...

"Rudy Giuliani said Trump's first reaction to the FBI's search of his Florida property at Mar-a-Lago was to comment on the size of the crowd of his supporters that had gathered outside in the aftermath. Giuliani, a former New York mayor and longtime Trump ally, told Newsmax that Trump said the raid is "going to help me."

Trump is truly a despicable pile of egotistical human waste.

Shaw Kenawe said...

CLAIM: Former President Barack Obama took 30 million documents, many of them classified, to Chicago upon leaving the White House.

AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. Obama administration records are exclusively held and maintained by the National Archives and Records Administration, the federal agency confirmed on Friday. Millions of unclassified documents were transferred after Obama left office to a NARA facility in Chicago, but neither Obama’s personal foundation nor the facility set to house his presidential memorabilia have control over those papers.

THE FACTS: Amid mounting revelations surrounding the FBI’s search of former President Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago estate, a counternarrative pushed online — including by Trump himself — posits that Obama similarly kept possession of White House documents after his term of office.

“President Barack Hussein Obama kept 33 million pages of documents, much of them classified. How many of them pertained to nuclear? Word is, lots!” Trump posted on Truth Social, the social network he founded, on Friday.

“OBAMA TOOK 30 Million Documents when he left the WHITEHOUSE and No FBI RAID,” read one tweet posted Tuesday, the day after the FBI’s search, that had garnered almost 20,000 likes by Friday.

But these records were given to NARA in 2017, upon the end of Obama’s term, and they remain in NARA’s sole custody, in accordance with federal law. Some 30 million documents were moved to a NARA-operated facility in the Chicago area, as the agency explained in a statement Friday, but none were classified. The administration’s classified documents are stored in a separate NARA facility in the Washington, D.C., area.

Mike said...

I don't think the only reason is treason. I think he's like a kid that found a gun and wants to show people what he has(had).

Les Carpenter said...

Trump is doing what Trump does best. Lying through his teeth and off his keyboard. A POS that nobody respects. Except those who very likely would do as he has done were they in similar straits.

Dave Miller said...

Skud... could you define or give 2 specific examples of what a conservative must do for you to consider them extreme?

I've done the liberal side a million times, but to date, neither you or any other conservative has been willing to offer up specific behaviors ppl on the right would have to exhibit in order to considered extreme.

Maybe this time you'll deliver.

Especially since you say "the extremists on both sides."

BluebullAmerica said...

For King Clorox, it's always treason season. And now the entire GQP can be lumped in with the Trump traitors. We're going to need a lot more blindfolds, I'm afraid.

Les Carpenter said...

Apparently for a con none of their positions are considered to be to extreme. On the other hand if one is a liberal/progressive (or a RINO) every position seems to generally be considered to extreme.

I guess skud's both sides do it meme absolves him from ever giving thought to what actually might constitute the extreme.

As American Trumpublican conservatives work very hard to actually find the bottom as quickly as possible.

skudrunner said...

Rev, I am a moderate in every way except financial so what I see as extreme may differ from most conservatives. To me extreme is taking a protest and make it a violent protest. That includes driving into a crowd, destroying a building or attacking someone because they are different. Demanding people conform to your norms, that does apply to both sides. I am a firm believer in personal choice and responsibility and to deny the right to exercise their right just because it differs from yours is extreme. That is the reason I support a women's right to choose. Anyone who thinks trump is a good choice and defends him is extreme. I would like to see euqal justice but that has passed all of us by.

Les Carpenter said...

How about if YOUR right advethis time.rsely affects or impacts so called others in a very negative way skud. In such circumstances what would be your posistion? To exercise your right freely w/out regard to the impact or to be considerate and respect the rights of the so called others?

And thank you for responding to Dave this time skud. Speaking for myself I now have a little better understanding.

Dave Miller said...

After I asked Skud to define or give 2 specific examples of what a conservative must do for you to consider them extreme?

Here's what Skud said... "To me extreme is taking a protest and make it a violent protest. That includes driving into a crowd, destroying a building or attacking someone because they are different... I am a firm believer in personal choice and responsibility and to deny the right to exercise their right just because it differs from yours is extreme."

And then miraculously, this... "Anyone who thinks trump is a good choice and defends him is extreme."

I'm gobsmacked.

I've asked this same question of conservatives we've all interacted with multiple times online, as well as others... the Captain of the Mothership and her sailors, AOW, -FJ, Silver, Ed Bonderenka, Warren and more. Not a one of them offered any examples. Or even bothered to answer. And yet today, Skud comes through.

Skud, my hat is off to you. Because to call out your own tribe is risky. You're literally calling everyone I mentioned above, who have been too timid to answer my question, extremists.

Because they all support Trump, mostly find your views on choice and abortion wrong and have excused the violence at the capitol as a nothing burger.

Honestly, if there were more "conservatives" like you, willing to say what you just said, our country would be better off.

Thanks amigo, you made my day. And not just because I agree with you. But because you were brave enough to say it. Publicly.

Shaw Kenawe said...


What Dave M. said!

Shaw Kenawe said...

Dave M., RN

Skud is the Liz Cheney of blogdom!

Dave Miller said...

The Liz Cheney of Blogdom!

Now that's funny.

Skud, as I've continued to think about your comment and others you've posted, I'm wondering if I've got your political leanings correct.

You seem to be a personal responsibility guy, a live and let live guy, [within reason] more libertarian as it relates to a person's personal life and fiscally conservative.

You tell me if I'm right. Or wrong.

Because if I'm right, I believe you fall straight into the old line camp of Rockefeller Republicans.

Leftish on social issues, leaning right on fiscal issues.

If so, you, like a lot of conservatives and old line Blue Dog Dems, are a man without a party.

BTW, as you said "anyone who defends him [Trump] is extreme", aren't then all the current mentioned GOP candidates for president extreme, based on their defenses of Trump over the years? And the same for members of the House and Senate who've defended him?

And if so, who do you vote for? Or do you, as a matter of principle, just sit out the election, because the great majority of options for you are either a leftist who doesn't share your values, or an extremist, who by definition are bad for the country?

skudrunner said...

Rev, I don't belong to a tribe and I hold the same views for the left and right. If I could wave a magic wand I would eliminate politicians world wide because they only manipulate people without providing any benefit.

I believe people who still support trump are stupid but I also feel people are stupid who support an administration who spends billions on increased IRS agents to enforce an increased tax on the middle class and small businesses and lie calling it inflation reduction. Raise taxes and give away billions is not inflation reduction.

To bad cheney lost but the citizens of her state voted her out so that's fair. I don't live in her state so I should have no voice and should not be able to contribute to any campaign in a state where I don't reside.