Paul Revere by Cyrus Dallin, North End, Boston



Tuesday, June 20, 2017

Too Hot For Planes To Fly?


People who don't believe climate change/global warming is real, skip this and go visit a blog that claims Trump is a competent and gracious man and that he is very much beloved by the American people as well as admired by people all over the world.

Phoenix flights cancelled because it's too hot for planes 

 As temperatures climb in Phoenix, Arizona, more than 40 flights have been cancelled - because it is too hot for the planes to fly. The weather forecast for the US city suggests temperatures could reach 120F (49C) on Tuesday. That is higher than the operating temperature of some planes. 

American Airlines announced it was cancelling dozens of flights scheduled to take off from Sky Harbor airport during the hottest part of the day. The local Fox News affiliate in Phoenix said the cancellations mostly affected regional flights on the smaller Bombardier CRJ airliners, which have a maximum operating temperature of about 118F (48C). 

The all-time record for temperatures in Phoenix is just slightly higher, at 122F, which hit on 26 June 1990. The cancelled flights were scheduled to take off between 15:00 and 18:00 local time. 

Why can't planes fly? 

At higher temperatures, air has a lower density - it is thinner. That lower air density reduces how much lift is generated on an aircraft's wings - a core principle in aeronautics. That, in turn, means the aircraft's engines need to generate more thrust to get airborne.

The NEOTUS*, Trump, on climate change/global warming:

*NEOTUS = National Embarrassment of the U.S.
"The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive."

 "NBC News just called it the great freeze - coldest weather in years. Is our country still spending money on the GLOBAL WARMING HOAX?"

"Snowing in Texas and Louisiana, record setting freezing temperatures throughout the country and beyond. Global warming is an expensive hoax!" "Ice storm rolls from Texas to Tennessee - I'm in Los Angeles and it's freezing. Global warming is a total, and very expensive, hoax!"

"Obama's talking about all of this with the global warming and...a lot of it's a hoax. It's a hoax. I mean, it's a money-making industry, OK? It's a hoax, a lot of it."


Kevin Robbins said...

It's not just the irony that's scorching.

The Absolute Marxist said...

It's sooo hot!

Jerry Critter said...

I ran into this problem many years ago. Three friends and I flew to Las Vegas in a small single engine plane. When we left Vegas to fly home, it was very hot out. Once we took off we had trouble gaining altitude and spent the first 10 minutes or so flying about a 100 ft above the desert trying to gain air speed so that we could gain altitude. We had a few tense minutes, but finally made it.

Anonymous said...

This one goes out to pShaw, wherever she may be!
Deal With It, or Don't, no one give a crap!

Shaw Kenawe said...

This one goes out to "Anonymous:". What sort of weirdo comes to a blog he doesn't like and bitches about something no one forced him to read?

Answer: A troll with the intellectual capacity of a hair brush.

Shaw Kenawe said...

T.A.M. What's your point? California had a very, very wet winter, and that meant tons of snow in the mountains, so much that they'll be skiing through August in the high altitudes.

skudrunner said...

It would be nice if authors of these articles actually knew what they were talking about or at least asked someone who knew something. Too hot to fly is BS, to hot to fly and carry a decent load maybe. The higher the temperature the higher the density altitude which is what affects the aircraft's performance. In JC's example they were to heavy to get adequate lift and it sounds like he should pick different pilots to fly with or stay on the ground
How do these experts who write articles feel about aircraft flying in the Middle East which happens every day in temperatures above 100.
Nice way to turn ignorance into a bash Trump and plug Global Warming, excuse me climate change.

Shaw Kenawe said...

Maybe this will clarify it for you, skudrunner (different aircraft are built to fly in different hot temperatures. That's why some aircraft can fly in the M.E. with no problem.):

The Arizona Republic reported that around 50 flights for Tuesday were cancelled at Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport. These were primarily regional flights. According to The Arizona Republic.

A statement from American Airlines, the American Eagle regional flights use the Bombardier CRJ aircraft, which has a maximum operating temperature of 118 degrees. Tuesday's forecast for Phoenix includes a high of 120 degrees, and the flights that are affected were to take off between 3 and 6 p.m.....Larger jets that fly out of Sky Harbor have higher maximum operating temperatures: Boeing, 126 degrees, and Airbus, 127 degrees

The science behind why airlines struggle in extreme heat is rather simple. Patrick Smith is a pilot and author of the book Cockpit Confidential. In 2013, Business Insider considered the question of why aircraft struggle in extreme heat. While heat is stressful on some of the planes internal parts, physics is the main reason. Business Insider quotes Smith's writing:

Hot air is less dense. This affects the output of the engines as well as aerodynamic capabilities, increasing the required runway distance and reducing climb performance. Therefore the amount of passengers and cargo a plane can carry are often restricted when temps are very high......How much so depends on the temperature, airport elevation and the length of the available runways. And getting off the ground is only part of it: once airborne, planes have to meet specific, engine-out climb criterion, so nearby obstructions like hills and towers are another complication.

I think people are generally familiar with this because of the concept of hot air balloons. However, it is useful to delve deeper into the world of density and lift. Density is defined by the American Meteorological Society's Glossary of Meteorology as "the ratio of the mass of any substance to the volume occupied by it (usually expressed in kilograms per cubic meter, but any other unit system may be used)...In a continuous medium the density is defined by a limiting process and is a point function." In simplistic terms, it is the mass divided by volume.

From: The Science Of Why It's Too Hot For Some Planes To Fly In The Southwest U.S.

Shaw Kenawe said...


Airplanes take off and stay aloft because of lift, the force from the movement of air underneath the plane's wings that push it upward.

'As air warms up, it expands and there's fewer molecules to be under your wing,' said Lou McNally , professor of applied meteorology at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University.
With less lift, 'you need more of everything. You need more thrust to take off. You need more distance (on the runway) to take off. You need more distance to land. You need more speed to land. It gets to a point for some aircraft that it gets just too much,' he said.
High heat also means a plane climbs at a lower rate, said pilot Patrick Smith, author of the book 'Cockpit Confidential .'

To compensate, planes have to generate more thrust or power and have larger wings.

It appears, skudrunner you were a little too quick to dispute the reports of interfering with planes taking off, and it also appears you don't know the details of how some planes cannot fly in extreme heat.

Smaller jets that generate less thrust, like Bombardier's CRJ regional jets, which have a 118-degree limit at Phoenix's elevation, are more likely to be stuck in the heat.
At Dubai International Airport and other Gulf airports, which are used to hot weather, many flights - but not all - arrive at night and early morning to get around the heat problem.

Jerry's experience matches what is reported above. And yes, we'll be seeing more of this because of Global Warming/Climate Change, whether you believe in it or not.

The science is real, not your skepticism, which is grounded in politics, not science.

The science of flight: Why some planes can't fly in high heat

Rational Nation USA said...

skudrunner foiled again. LOL!

KP said...

Interesting topic. Flying in high temperatures is similar to an athlete at high altitude. The result is lessor performance. In fact, the performance of athletes at about 5500 feet of elevation (say Boulder, CO.) is compromised by five to ten percent (depending on days up there). Three days being worst performance and about eleven days lessening negative impact. Interestingly, the body responds similarly in a negative way when temps reach about one hundred degrees (individual performance may vary); a decrease in five to ten percent power, pace and increase in heart rate, which slows hydration and calorie assimilation.

Unlike airplanes humans adapt to altitude and heat over time (acclimation to altitude and heat or both). Some respond and some respond in a lesser way or not at all. That's why drugging/cheating with EPO works for some better than others.

We have the science on flights. You don't fly out of Denver (mile high) on very hot days. That's a double whammy.

It's always been this way. It will always be this way.

Flying Junior said...

The higher the temperature the higher the density altitude which is what affects the aircraft's performance. In JC's example they were to heavy to get adequate lift and it sounds like he should pick different pilots to fly with or stay on the ground.

So airlines should pick lighter pilots? Skinny, short guys with little frames, kinda like jockeys? Maybe any pilot over 105 lbs. should be grounded until he loses weight.

BTW, what is density altitude?

Anonymous said...

"Too hot to fly is BS," skudruner

Typical wingnut, doesn't know what he's talking about but isn't shy about letting evryone know his ignorance. just like Trump.

Sonja L. said...

Shaw, a global warming issue that most don't consider. hubby and I got stuck on the tarmac in Las Vegas once because the temp was so high that sensors wouldn't work properly.

Anonymous said...

Shaw, here's another article to counter skudder's ill-informed comment on why some planes can't fly in extreme heat.

Shaw Kenawe said...

Thanks, Anonymous @8:43 AM

I'm making a hyperlink of the info you left.


skudrunner said...

So the one type of commercial airplanes has a temperature restriction and they cancelled 50 flights because for a brief period the temp was 119d. This is all due to global warming. This was economics brought on by high heat. FJ, you limit the number of passengers to lower the weight. The problem with that is the flight becomes unprofitable and you can blame the weather to cut losses or combine flights to a larger aircraft.
Ms Shaw, Your post was about global warming, excuse me "climate change", and bashing Trump. Maybe if Trump hadn't pulled out of the Paris Accord planes would still fly. Do you blame the 122d temperature in Phoenix in 1990 on global warming because that was about the time we were fearing another ice age.
Sorry anon 706 but you should do your research before you sling arrows and I expected a barb from RN because that is all he ever provides. KP gets it.

Marion said...

Sorry it bothers you so much but it's high time we have a president that understands that his duties are to govern the country according to the will of the people, and not the will of the rest of the world!.

Shaw Kenawe said...

Marion: "Sorry it bothers you so much but it's high time we have a president that understands that his duties are to govern the country according to the will of the people,"

If you're speaking about Trump, the fact is that "the will of the people" is not with him.

Trump's disapproval is at 60%. Two thirds of the American people don't like him.

A wise president cares about "the rest of the world." We once were the leader of the rest of the world, but Trump has made us the laughing stock of the rest of the world.

Shaw Kenawe said...

skudrunner: "Ms Shaw, Your post was about global warming, excuse me "climate change", and bashing Trump."

No. The title of my post says: "Too Hot For Planes To Fly?" You became angry when I linked the increasingly high temps to global warming, which is real and not a hoax.

Your comment about the Paris Climate Accord is nonsensical.

skudrunner said...

You are comparing Trump's dismal approval rating with the agenda the voters voted for. In this case the message is right the messenger is wrong. The people who voted for Trump still support his plans but not him, big difference.

Even Algore said the Paris Accord would do nothing to change the effects of "Climate Change". It is a feel good do nothing international pat on the back which was going to cost the American Taxpayer billions and accomplish nothing. Most of us do not have unlimited funds to support worthless feel good programs. I guess some do.

Shaw Kenawe said...

Skud, Trump IS the message, and a majority of Americans dislike BOTH.

The American people support Obamacare, which is more popular with them than is Trump. (See the chart above today's post.)

The American people supported the Paris Climate Agreement.

A majority of Americans DO NOT support the Muslim travel ban.

A majority of Americans DO NOT support building a wall on the Mexican border.

A majority of Americans DO NOT support giving more tax breaks to the rich.

A majority of Americans supported the lifting of the Cuba embargo.

You conservatives LIVE in a bubble and believe Americans agree with you. They don't. Over and over Americans have voiced their dislike of the the tweeting maniac Trump and his awful administration's policies. But since you seem to read only what supports your agenda, you think Trump's message is one that a majority of Americans agree with.

I've got news: Even a majority of Americans did not vote for Trump. So. Both HE AND HIS AGENDA are rejected by a majority of Americans.

And to top all of that off, Trump is under an FBI investigation.


The 4 special elections that the Goopers won do not indicate what the rest of the country thinks about Trump.


Shaw Kenawe said...

The link above to the lifting of the Cuba embargo should have been THIS ONE.

BTW, skud, I back my statements with evidence/links. You never do. I imagine that's because you get your information from WYD and other rabid right wing blogs. SAD!

Jerry Critter said...

skud - "Even Algore said the Paris Accord would do nothing to change the effects of "Climate Change". "

Actually, Gore did not say that. There is the exchange between Chris Wallace and Al Gore,

"Fox News’ Chris Wallace asked Gore if he agrees that, even if all 194 nations part of the Paris climate accord met their targets, it still won’t solve the problem of global warming.

“That is correct,” Gore told Wallace."

There is a big difference between "would do nothing" and "still won't solve".